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Post by DAZed on Aug 22, 2017 18:44:39 GMT -5
At the National Train Show a few weeks ago, AZL very quietly announced what some would consider a revolutionary freight car in Z...the Gunderson Maxi-Stack I double-stack car. There have been a few requests for more information on this announcement from AZL. So, while I'm not privy to any information from AZL, I can provide some info about the prototype cars and what we might expect from AZL. I'm missing some key research materials located in storage, but I decided to go ahead and get started and fill in the blanks later. The main thing I'm missing is the overall production/series information, but a lot of that can be extrapolated or isn't needed to paint a fairly complete picture of these interesting cars. The prototype that these cars will (presumably) be based on are 5-unit articulated cars, with 40ft wells designed to carry 20 or 40ft containers in the lower well, with 40ft, 45ft, 48ft, or 53ft* containers in the top position. (*53's do have special loading restrictions) For more on the history, I'll borrow a snippet from Athearn's website: "Gunderson introduced their Maxi-Stack 5-unit articulated well car in 1988. Evolved from their previous 5-unit Twin-Stack design, the Maxi-Stack (also called Maxi-Stack I or Maxi-I) boasted a lower tare weight (accomplished in part by the elimination of the bulkheads of the Twin-Stack), greater capacity, and greater versatility in regard to container lengths and widths that could be carried.
"Initial production of these cars lasted from May of 1988 through May of 1990 with approximately 270 cars built for Southern Pacific, Chicago Heights Terminal & Transfer, Trailer Train, Maersk, and the Rail-Bridge Corporation. Despite their design advances these cars were quickly overshadowed by newer and even larger designs, and it appeared that the final chapter on the Maxi-Stack design had been written.
"However, due to ever-increasing international container traffic, moving in mostly 20’ and 40’ containers, the railroads took another look at the Maxi-Stack. While the newer car designs with 48’, 53’, or 56’ wells were more than adequate to handle this traffic, the additional car length was unnecessary for hauling these shorter containers with the corresponding excess in train length and increased fuel consumption.
"As a result, BNSF Railway placed orders for new Maxi-Stack cars in 2000. While outwardly identical to the first generation of Maxi-Stacks, these new cars featured minor cosmetic differences compared to their earlier siblings. As of 2007, the Maxi-Stack is still in production, with new cars built to date for BNSF Railway, TTX, Northwest Container, and Arkansas & Oklahoma Railway."I used the word revolutionary and I do believe these cars will be just that for Z-Scale. These will be the first ready-to-run, Z-Scale, North-American prototype, articulated freight car ever...and that is great news for Intermodal fans. If these cars operate well and are commercially successful, it will almost assuredly pave the way for many other needed pieces of Intermodal equipment in Z. I'll get into more of the technical details about the car and the various road names and so forth, but a couple of points to close this entry: - Keep in mind that almost ALL double-stack rail cars ever built are STILL IN SERVICE. There are a few exceptions of course, and factoring cars destroyed in derailments. But given most were built post-1985 they are well within their 40-year service life. (or 50-year extended) So, the Maxi-I's are still making money for the railroads!
- These 40ft articulated cars (along with cars like the Twin-Stacks and LoPac 2000's) are great for model railroads as they portray the look of modern double-stack intermodal trains nicely, yet with a minimum footprint...easier to get a variety of cars for a given train length versus 48ft or 53ft cars.
- The Maxi-I's roots are found in the venerable bulkhead-equipped Twin-Stack cars. Essentially, the difference in the cars is not much more than shaving the bulkheads off, so these Maxi-I cars are also great candidates for a kitbashing project to arrive at the (also still in service) Twin-Stack cars. And who knows, maybe AZL will craftily tool the cars in a way that will yield both models at some point.
So, a lot to love about these cars, and it will be an anxious year or two waiting for these to come to fruition. (to be continued...) |
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Post by DAZed on Aug 22, 2017 19:05:05 GMT -5
So looking at road names, I expect AZL's releases will closely emulate those from some of the larger scales such as Kato (N-Scale) and Athearn. (HO-Scale) I view this as a good thing, as it is a lower risk approach and ensures that we won't have some major faux pas with the final product. So, as you can imagine, a lot of the Kato and Athearn production runs have some similarities too, so I'm gonna focus on the Kato releases and augment with info about the Athearn releases as needed. Here is a list of the Kato production runs: (included containers in parenthesis) TTX (APL) Rd# 750754 TTX (APL) Rd# 750767 TTX (APL) Rd# 750764 TTX (Maersk) Rd# 750977 TTX (Maersk) Rd# 751193 BNSF "Swoosh" (MOL) Rd# 238782 BNSF "Swoosh" (MOL) Rd# 239702 AOK (Hanjin) Rd# 58101 AOK (Hanjin) Rd# 58153 MAERSK (MAERSK) Rd# 100000 MAERSK (MAERSK) Rd# 100059 MAERSK (MAERSK) Rd# 100008 MAERSK (MAERSK) Rd# 100010 TTX "New Logo" (CAI) Rd# 759300 TTX "New Logo"(CAI) Rd# 759392 To Which I would add... BNSF "Circle Logo" w Hyundai 40' Containers MAERSK Faded/Patched w/ Maersk Sealand 40' Containers If it were me, I would probably replace the MOL and CAI containers in the Kato list with something like China Shipping, MSC, or CMA-CGM which seem more common to me. But of course I admit my sample size and location might be different from others. I have also asked AZL about the possibility of doing cars sans containers as well. That request was met with interest by AZL, so we'll see. Removing the containers and summarizing, we get: TTX Rd# 750754, 750767, 750764, 750977, 751193 BNSF "Swoosh" Rd# 238782, 239702 AOK Rd# 58101, 58153 MAERSK Rd# 100000, 100059, 100008, 100010 TTX "New Logo" Rd# 759300, 759392 BNSF "Circle Logo" MAERSK Faded/Patched I think the above list is nice...good mix of old and new. I would probably ease off the Maersk numbers and do a lot of TTX, plus adding in the BNSF Circle Logo and the "MAERSK Faded/Patched". (more on that scheme later) I am in the process of collecting more research and photos so I'll start down that road next. (to be continued...) A couple of Kato pics, for inspiration...   |
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 23, 2017 10:48:20 GMT -5
So.....
Pretty good work on the research!
.... keep going. There is more to discover.
:-)
-Rob(A)
AZL
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Post by DAZed on Aug 23, 2017 11:06:02 GMT -5
So..... Pretty good work on the research! .... keep going. There is more to discover. :-) -Rob(A) AZL Oh trust me, I know. I'm just trying to keep you guys focused so we don't have any more "Iowa Interstate trumps BNSF" situations. If I can keep the squirrels and shiny objects away from AZL World Headquarters then my job is done and Z-scalers can rejoice.  |
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Post by modelwarships on Aug 23, 2017 11:30:20 GMT -5
Thank you Doug, I'll be checking this thread for official AZL pic updates. More CAD renderings like these posted in the other thread welcome too!   |
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 23, 2017 16:40:58 GMT -5
Something for everybody to be aware of: PRICE
This is not inexpensive tooling, and our unit cost is quite high.
I expect this 5 unit car to cost as much as a locomotive.
I do hope this does not dampen your enthusiasm, but I want everyone to be aware.
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Post by DAZed on Aug 23, 2017 17:47:36 GMT -5
Can we pick which locomotive?  I vote GP38.  Retail on your 53ft NSC cars with containers was around $45 per platform so extrapolating for five platforms with containers that has us at $225. (and yep...ES44 at $230) That puts them on the street for estimated $170-180. One could argue fewer trucks/couplers, shorter cars, etc. Would be nicer if the comparison is to the GP30's Retail price at $195 yielding a $150-160 range on the street. So, yeah pretty dampened at MSRP $230,  somewhat within tolerence at MSRP $195. |
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Post by ciccino on Aug 24, 2017 0:57:56 GMT -5
Something for everybody to be aware of: PRICE This is not inexpensive tooling, and our unit cost is quite high. I expect this 5 unit car to cost as much as a locomotive. I do hope this does not dampen your enthusiasm, but I want everyone to be aware. I hope we are not talking of the Big Boy 😂 I have been waiting years for this type of cars. Whatever the price, I am sure it will be worth it! |
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Post by modelwarships on Aug 26, 2017 22:16:41 GMT -5
Something for everybody to be aware of: PRICE This is not inexpensive tooling, and our unit cost is quite high. I expect this 5 unit car to cost as much as a locomotive. I do hope this does not dampen your enthusiasm, but I want everyone to be aware. Doesn't dampen my enthusiasm, unless you exaggerate the tooling cost. If this is tooled anything like the HO scale sets and you only need two or possibly three different inserts for your primary mold. Realistically the 5 car set should cost less than 5 AZL freight cars or 1-1/2 x the cost of your 53' Thrall Well Car sets. Fewer trucks and couplers to assemble, and existing container molds. Price it the same as the retail of your current locomotives and you will see fewer sales. |
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Joe
New Member
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Post by Joe on Aug 29, 2017 15:38:17 GMT -5
Realistically a 5 unit without containers could be north of $150 and with them more... Or not. One of the problems with articulated cars and why you don't see a lot of them is the cost to the consumer. Still, a good car to make. Another issue Rob brought up was the cost of tooling or as we like to refer to it ROI...how many units and how long is it going to take you to break even. Also, you may have fewer parts, but printing and masking is going to drive the final price. Parts are cheap...painting them not so much.  Joe |
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Post by DAZed on Aug 29, 2017 16:46:34 GMT -5
Realistically a 5 unit without containers could be north of $150 and with them more... Or not. One of the problems with articulated cars and why you don't see a lot of them is the cost to the consumer. Still, a good car to make. Another issue Rob brought up was the cost of tooling or as we like to refer to it ROI...how many units and how long is it going to take you to break even. Also, you may have fewer parts, but printing and masking is going to drive the final price. Parts are cheap...painting them not so much. Joe Hmmm... According to Rob, "They [undecs] cost us the same to produce as decorated locomotives. I know everyone will say this doesn't make sense, but it is true: the cost of painting the locomotive on an assembly line is just a few cents. Once we deal with another product number and packaging, the cost of an undec is the same as fully painted. We cannot save you any money by supplying it undecorated."** Yes, he is talking about a loco, but it seems that a loco-esque-priced freight car would be no different. Now, I personally think that the above is absurd. At very least you're not factoring in research and design costs in that evaluation of decoration costs per unit. But anyway. I also find it equally absurd that MTL is coming here trying to argue why AZL stuff should be more expensive. MTL is absolutely working under different rules given domestic production costs, so your ROI, cost of tooling, and cost per part (oh yeah, and cost of decoration apparently) are all going to be different. ** Referenced quote located here.
Anyway, you guys go do your price fixing in private and quit hijacking my thread!    |
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 29, 2017 19:28:29 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I ran some quick numbers on this project.
I estimate that the 5-unit articulated Maxi-I WITHOUT containers will be MSRP $199 - street Price about 10% less.
Add $5 per container if you want them.
So about $49 per car with containers.
That price is in the same neighborhood as our 53' well cars (when we had them for sale) as a 3 pack with containers was just a little under $140, or about $47 per car. Given that the 53' well cars were produced 7(?) years ago, that is a very small price increase!
Best,
-Rob(A)
AZL
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 29, 2017 19:33:52 GMT -5
Realistically a 5 unit without containers could be north of $150 and with them more... Or not. One of the problems with articulated cars and why you don't see a lot of them is the cost to the consumer. Still, a good car to make. Another issue Rob brought up was the cost of tooling or as we like to refer to it ROI...how many units and how long is it going to take you to break even. Also, you may have fewer parts, but printing and masking is going to drive the final price. Parts are cheap...painting them not so much. Joe Pretty much spot on. |
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Post by BAZman on Aug 29, 2017 23:32:56 GMT -5
M m m m m . . . L O N G T R A I N S
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Joe
New Member
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Post by Joe on Aug 30, 2017 9:15:48 GMT -5
Realistically a 5 unit without containers could be north of $150 and with them more... Or not. One of the problems with articulated cars and why you don't see a lot of them is the cost to the consumer. Still, a good car to make. Another issue Rob brought up was the cost of tooling or as we like to refer to it ROI...how many units and how long is it going to take you to break even. Also, you may have fewer parts, but printing and masking is going to drive the final price. Parts are cheap...painting them not so much. Joe Hmmm... According to Rob, "They [undecs] cost us the same to produce as decorated locomotives. I know everyone will say this doesn't make sense, but it is true: the cost of painting the locomotive on an assembly line is just a few cents. Once we deal with another product number and packaging, the cost of an undec is the same as fully painted. We cannot save you any money by supplying it undecorated."** Yes, he is talking about a loco, but it seems that a loco-esque-priced freight car would be no different. Now, I personally think that the above is absurd. At very least you're not factoring in research and design costs in that evaluation of decoration costs per unit. But anyway. I also find it equally absurd that MTL is coming here trying to argue why AZL stuff should be more expensive. MTL is absolutely working under different rules given domestic production costs, so your ROI, cost of tooling, and cost per part (oh yeah, and cost of decoration apparently) are all going to be different. ** Referenced quote located here.
Anyway, you guys go do your price fixing in private and quit hijacking my thread! |
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I vote GP38. 
somewhat within tolerence at MSRP $195. 
