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Post by catt on Apr 14, 2015 14:07:52 GMT -5
the only company actually producing Z scale product when are you going to wise up and start producing more locos like the GP38-2 in the $100.00 range.We had our Z layouts at a local show on 4-11,and there was a lot of interest but the prices for the GP-30s and SD70s were turning people off to Z where as my GP38-2 got folks interested at the $100.00 per price.You've already got everything but the shell for GP40-2s,GP50s and GP60s and there is a market for them.
I know the molds are expencive but I truly believe the scale would grow with more affordable locos for sale.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 15:38:46 GMT -5
While I agree with you I like the quality of the gp30 and sd70s over the gp38. The brass etched parts make the other models superior. I have several of the 38-2 models but I've replaced the handrails.
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Post by catt on Apr 14, 2015 22:18:39 GMT -5
Point is younger folks could aford a GP38/40/50/60 at the $100.00 price point a whole lot easier than they can $170.+.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 22:58:34 GMT -5
Point is younger folks could aford a GP38/40/50/60 at the $100.00 price point a whole lot easier than they can $170.+. What age group is younger folk to you? To be fair most everything nowadays is more expensive. A quality N scale or HO scale engine is easily over $200. I won't even get into O scale prices ( which is what I've modeled for years and years). The gp30s are $145. The f59 engine is $99, right now you can buy the engine and cars direct for $99. So that's a good deal for new modelers. I imagine the new sd45 will be slightly more than the gp38 (just a guess) but still what I deem affordable.
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Apr 15, 2015 2:54:58 GMT -5
We hope to continue to offer both the F59PHI and the GP38-2 at around $100. We can do this since the tooling is fully depreciated. But the cost of tooling for new locomotives, makes a price point of $100 totally out of reach. Further and most important, there has been a huge inflation of the unit price from the factories as well. Since Z scale still is small (and thankfully growing) compared to N, the tooling costs per locomotive is also higher than N. Are we planning other low cost locomotives? Not at this time. The SD45 and ES44AC are very detailed locomotives and will be offered in several configurations. We do not have prices yet, but they will reflect the current unit and tooling costs. Sincerely, Hans (AZL)
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Post by ztrack on Apr 15, 2015 7:34:16 GMT -5
I would like to add to Hans' comments. The GP38-2 is an incredible value. AZL really wanted to this to be an entry level locomotive and help bring more people to Z scale. It is definitely working! But it also is quite different than other AZL loco releases. AZL has the reputation for prototype specific detailing. The different shells and detail packages is what makes AZL stand out. Even the other scales are taking notice of what AZL is doing in Z and questioning why they can't do the same in their scale. You have to love that! But this does come with cost. The more details, the higher the cost.
We are also receiving requests from select dealers to increase our MSRPs. The GP38-2 was cited by these dealers as being priced too low. We are actually seeing a trend where select dealers are selling the GP38-2 for above the MSRP. The MSRP is just that, a suggested retail price so they can do so. But it is counter to the strategy of offering an entry level locomotive at a great value.
AZL will be adjusting MSRPs for future runs of new products in response to dealers requests. So watch for higher MSRPs. But the good news is that we know there is a lot of competition in the dealer market place and we believe great values will be found.
By the way, on a personal note, I love hearing from Z scalers who started with a GP38, then moved on to a GP7/9, GP30 or SD70 series locomotive. I just can't wait for all of the new locomotives to arrive from AZL so there are even more options!
Rob
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 15, 2015 10:32:22 GMT -5
Rob:
One thing to note here about pricing, if dealers want the MSRP raised and they think it is too low, it's because they don't have enough profit margin on these units. However, there are dealers who gouge by charging almost double for those same locos. Nobody begrudges them a profit, but when it's excessive, anything over 15%, then that's totally unreasonable. I experience this all the time from the dealers in my city that's why I buy all my Z scale stuff from dealers in the States. Even with the exchange rate and sometimes, customs duties, it's still more economical for me to buy z scale engines, cars, et el, down there. I do think the pricing on some of AZL's products is quite steep, but increasing the MSRP's to satisfy dealers isn't reasonable in my opinion. Perhaps AZL should start thinking about a buy direct from company policy. In other words AZL sells direct to members bypassing the dealers altogether. Some pricing would go down because you have less overhead to be concerned about and as long as inventory levels are maintained, you would never run out of stock unless something was discontinued. For my money, that's the way to go.
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Post by mrja on Apr 15, 2015 10:42:24 GMT -5
Rob: Perhaps AZL should start thinking about a buy direct from company policy. In other words AZL sells direct to members bypassing the dealers altogether. AZL already has a direct sales website... www.azldirect.com
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Post by catt on Apr 16, 2015 9:52:12 GMT -5
Since the only part of a GP 40-50 or 60 you need new tooling for I fail to see why it is out of reach. You already have everything else needed to do these locos. It's not like you have to start from the rails and work your way up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 11:59:22 GMT -5
Since the only part of a GP 40-50 or 60 you need new tooling for I fail to see why it is out of reach. You already have everything else needed to do these locos. It's not like you have to start from the rails and work your way up. It's not that easy to make a new model. I had a conversation wil Uncle Will of full throttle and he said the tooling cost about $50k. It could very well cost AZL a different amount that's not my business. That's a lot of money upfront for any small company. I think we should all wait until August when Hans said he will announce the new models. They have repeatedly said the time for a new model would be close to two years from design before we ever see it on the tracks.
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Post by gerd on Apr 16, 2015 18:59:38 GMT -5
Full Throttle -> USA Bowser manufacturing = USA tooling = US cost AZL -> Chinese Suppliers = CN tooling = CN costs
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Post by ztrack on Apr 16, 2015 21:21:11 GMT -5
Gerd you do realize Bowser outsources to China as well for some of their products... right?
Rob
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Post by gerd on Apr 17, 2015 1:30:44 GMT -5
The question is "which some"?
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Post by ztrack on Apr 17, 2015 6:36:28 GMT -5
When I talked with Lee English at Bowser at few years ago, he indicated all tooling creation is now in China. He was straightforward and stated to stay competitive, this was a move that had to be made. If true, the new Full Throttle tooling would be included. If I remember correctly, Will has had delays in getting runs as there were holdups with China getting items to Bowser. Also know Bowser has had limitations with their pad printing. I am seeing more complex printing coming from Bowser and I am wondering if some of their finish work is happening overseers as well.
If you want to give Will at Full Throttle real props, Will finishes all of his own products. He assembles the cars, does the packaging, and in some cases, even does paint on the cars. The Chessie XXX cars yellow ends were painted by Will. That deserves real admiration.
Additionally, AZL and Bowser worked together on the first run of Bethgons.
While it is easy to throw out the China card as you sit in front of your Chinese made computer, remember others benefit locally. Ztrack now has three part time employees that work with us. This is needed to handle all of the quality control of the AZL products (test running locomotives), certain packaging, order fulfillment, warehousing, marketing and more. Additionally Ztrack rents office space that we must have to maintain our commitment to AZL. All of this is creating jobs, and putting a little money into the local, state and Federal economy.
I am very grateful for the work AZL has done and the products they have created. It is advancing the scale and giving us all new choices for products that a few years ago, we only could dream of.
Rob
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Post by emaley on Apr 17, 2015 8:05:37 GMT -5
Two years from announcement to delivered product is not bad from a manufacturer. I worked for McDonnell Douglas and it took about 15 years at a minimum to start getting prototypes for testing. Yes, aircraft are a bit more complex, but unless you have ever been in a manufacturing environment, the timeframe required is very surprising. Retooling, reworking, testing. It was an eye opening experience for me. It would sometimes take several days to get an engineering change to allow a change in the length of a fastener.
So, my point is the process is much more complicated than most realize. So, if you want more new models, buy more of what has already been made.
Trey
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