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Post by scalecalamity on Mar 18, 2024 9:37:06 GMT -5
For those who are running DCC - does anyone find it a bit concerning that AZL is planning to move forward on future releases with a decoder supplier (Zmodell) who's prices are almost double that of TCS and Digitrax 2-4 function decoders? Both have always been under $50 from most dealers, are known for good warranty support + quick decoder replacement, and availability established in house here in the United States.
Are chassis and pcbs even being sent to TCS and Digitrax anymore or are those relationships over? Did AZL even send the SW1500 and SD40 to either of them and will the in-development AC4400s and C44-9Ws be sent? It's great what Alex is designing and the factory is actually producing in 1:220 for AZL products, make no mistake about that. TCS also developed a screw-down design decoder (AZL1D4) for the ALCO PA and it seems to have stopped there; are either of them still working on a decoder for the SW1500 and/or SD40 but are backlogged in other scale developments?
I hope I am wrong about this but, I can't help feel like all the new and future AZL releases are moving in the direction of: either you run with Zmodell DCC decoders, or non at all - anything else, and your on your own.
*Does anyone here in the US actually know of Zmodell warranty & product support - does it fall under Doehler & Haass Control Systems GmbH & Co. KG - is there even a warranty? The circuit board and some decoder parts are sourced by Alex in Ukraine from what I understand, but the actual decoders themselves are produced by D&H in Munich, Germany? Zmodell has no official customer website that I am aware of that states the warranty support & replacement process, part of which I would like to believe is included with the higher cost per decoder of $80-$100+.
As someone recently and adequately put on here in another post, first world problems.
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 9:58:10 GMT -5
While I do support Alex in his endeavours, I'll admit I was having pretty much the same question this morning.
I've said this before, but I imagine that doing unique boards in every new locomotive is probably not making the manufacturers of decoders happy, as they have to basically design something new every time.
It does seem to me like AZL unofficially abandoned DCC because they didn't want to make the effort to support their old form factors for the boards.
Admittedly, Digitrax and TCS didn't put a lot of effort into the deal either, as the decoders were rife with fit problems, which pushed AZL this direction.
So now, we're left with nobody willing to do anything at the old price. One manufacturer is willing at 2x the price and that's where we are.
With everything except the SW1500, you can probably hardwire cheaper decoders from other manufacturers.
But my main concern is, I'm gonna go all-in with Zmodell and then they disappear. It happens.
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Post by scalecalamity on Mar 18, 2024 10:12:39 GMT -5
Anthony has them listed today 3/18: $84.99 (ZDL-AZL-SD40-2 retail for $109).
I added x2 to my cart, plus the ZDL-AZL-SW for $80.00 (retail $100); my cart is now over $250 for 3 decoders w/ shipping.
It definitely is a conundrum.
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 10:40:33 GMT -5
Anthony has them listed today 3/18: $84.99 (ZDL-AZL-SD40-2 retail for $109). I added x2 to my cart, plus the ZDL-AZL-SW for $80.00 (retail $100); my cart is now over $250 for 3 decoders w/ shipping. It definitely is a conundrum. Thanks for the update...I just got two of them.
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Post by Kez on Mar 18, 2024 10:49:02 GMT -5
Add two more for free shipping!!!
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Post by zscalehobo on Mar 18, 2024 11:58:20 GMT -5
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 12:13:21 GMT -5
I forgot to mention this but...
Regarding the SD40-2 decoder, it definitely isn't comparing apples to apples. The built-in caps (aka "Energy Storage Module") on these decoders is a massive deal. If you bought decoders from any other manufacturer, you would at best have to buy an add-on piece that probably wouldn't even fit in a Z loco. (that is if that feature was available at all.) And by the way, the sum of those items would be likely be much greater than $85, unless you went DIY for the caps in which case you probably have voided any warranties anyway.
So there really is nothing like it on the market, and probably won't be. Aside from the concern about warranty, support, longevity of the company, etc.--and assuming it works properly--this will be an amazing decoder.
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Post by BAZman on Mar 18, 2024 12:26:26 GMT -5
You can certainly send a loco to TCS and Digitrax. They need a model (that they keep, in case of issues down the down the road). 1~2 months. The board is fundamentally similar to the PA so computer autorouting is easy. I did this for the PA’s @digitrax 2-function (thank you very much) and Don Fedjur contracted TCS (as he prefers 4 function).
I am not doing Digitrax as my colleague has made an appropriate product for a ‘drop-in) decoder. The TCS or Digitrax would be challenged to be a 3 or 4 function but at least economical.
Also, it’s ~$40 to put the energy-storage components, TCS or any others. So it really an equivalent playing field. Like Autos, phones, etc. you get best first, the the trimmed down desperate low end.
AND EACH AND EVERY BOARD IS HAND MADE. Taking time and hassle many day securing the parts from multiple sources.
So please, purchase these to support him, at least this premium loco. You will be amazed how well the will run.
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 12:29:32 GMT -5
It's easy to *say* that "oh, yeah, manufacturers can whip up bespoke products NO PROBLEM". But the reality it's never "no problem" and no manufacturer wants to have to do that versus a standardized product that works across the board. I think that might explain the silence from Digitrax and TCS for the new releases. I haven't heard what they have in store for the SD40-2 for example...anyone? BTW, I'm not saying I think the screw-on boards are a bad idea at all. But it could have been better executed with a common size board. I get it that the SW1500 is an outlier but everything else could have been done off a single board most likely.
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Post by ednadolski on Mar 18, 2024 13:18:15 GMT -5
Are chassis and pcbs even being sent to TCS and Digitrax anymore or are those relationships over? Did AZL even send the SW1500 and SD40 to either of them and will the in-development AC4400s and C44-9Ws be sent?
Another factor (speculative on my part) is whether TCS/Digitrax even wants them, or is the Z market too small for them to care, compared to the other scales that they support?
I wonder also if it is possible to design future locos such that similar locos could share a common board? I doubt that would work in every case, but even if it could be divided into fewer buckets that seems like a good thing to me.
Ed
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Post by scanrail on Mar 18, 2024 13:54:55 GMT -5
For those who are running DCC - does anyone find it a bit concerning that AZL is planning to move forward on future releases with a decoder supplier (Zmodell) who's prices are almost double that of TCS and Digitrax 2-4 function decoders? Both have always been under $50 from most dealers, are known for good warranty support + quick decoder replacement, and availability established in house here in the United States. Are chassis and pcbs even being sent to TCS and Digitrax anymore or are those relationships over? Did AZL even send the SW1500 and SD40 to either of them and will the in-development AC4400s and C44-9Ws be sent? It's great what Alex is designing and the factory is actually producing in 1:220 for AZL products, make no mistake about that. TCS also developed a screw-down design decoder (AZL1D4) for the ALCO PA and it seems to have stopped there; are either of them still working on a decoder for the SW1500 and/or SD40 but are backlogged in other scale developments? I hope I am wrong about this but, I can't help feel like all the new and future AZL releases are moving in the direction of: either you run with Zmodell DCC decoders, or non at all - anything else, and your on your own. *Does anyone here in the US actually know of Zmodell warranty & product support - does it fall under Doehler & Haass Control Systems GmbH & Co. KG - is there even a warranty? The circuit board and some decoder parts are sourced by Alex in Ukraine from what I understand, but the actual decoders themselves are produced by D&H in Munich, Germany? Zmodell has no official customer website that I am aware of that states the warranty support & replacement process, part of which I would like to believe is included with the higher cost per decoder of $80-$100+. As someone recently and adequately put on here in another post, first world problems. Dear Scalecalamity, I'm sorry for calling you by your nickname - perhaps, you have serious reason for not revealing your real name. Although I may be wrong, but after reading your two very first messages on the forum, it looks like you have just registered here for only one reason - to criticize my products. Once again, I wish I'm wrong. Nevertheless, I think it makes sense to clarify a number of important things which may be completely unknown to newbies. About ZmodellI am Alex, I am from Kyiv, Ukraine. I moved to Germany together with my little children in 2022 when a cruel and unjust war struck my home country. I am a small series manufacturer who produces models and accessories for Z scale since 2016, such as load inserts and digital decoders. I own a license from German company Doehler & Haass for development and production customized digital decoders using Doehler & Haass proprietary hardware and software technology. By hardware technology I mean Doehler & Haass' own microcontroller which is the basis of all their and my decoders. For your information, this piece of hardware (surprisingly) costs money. By software technology I mean using Doehler & Haass firmware which I customize for needs of my own developments. Also, Doehler & Haass has one of the best in class load regulation technology almost no one other can compete with. For more information, you may explore their website (in German, use in-browser translation): doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/haeufige-fragen.phpI produce my products on my own and also with a help of my brave friends and colleagues who decided to stay in Ukraine. Doehler & Haass company has nothing to do with this except providing me with their microchips and software. Major manufacturers vs small series manufacturersFor your information, there is a difference between major manufacturers and small series manufacturers. It has always been so and it will always be, too. I'm one of the latter. Major manufacturers (in almost any area, not only model railroading) are always in winning position in terms of prices because they produce everything in bigger quantities and therefore can save on bulk and can also 'dissolve' development and all other overhead costs between higher number of pieces of given product. Small series manufactures in most cases face higher production costs due to the lower quantities. On the other side, they are more free in implementing some specific features and advantages in their products which it would be difficult or unreasonable to realize in mass-produced articles. Why do we have to go far - just remember brass models from AZL. You also wonder why they cost 5-10 times more than plastic models from the same manufacturer? About SD40-2 digital decoderMy digital decoder for SD40-2 diesel locomotive offers some extra features which cannot be found in most decoders from other manufacturers. These extra features have been realized by adding a number of electronic components which (surprisingly) cost money; some of them are quite expensive. I don't mean that I chose these expensive components intentionally just to make my product more expensive. If you want to bring me any ideas about how to make this digital decoder cheaper without cutting off any of its features - please go to Mouser or Digikey, explore tons of datasheets and come back here with any good news. I would be glad to hear about this. Integrated energy storage moduleEnergy storage or "Keep-Alive" (TCS' trademark) modules help digital decoders to remain functional when the locomotive runs over dirty tracks or other potentially problematic track sections like turnouts etc. In Z scale, the problem is more pronounced than in bigger scales because of the weight and size of rolling stock and all related elements and structures. Thus, necessity of such 'helpers' in Z scale is often even more obvious. But there is also a downside: any good storage capacity often cannot be packed in small enough size to be fitted inside tiny Z scale locomotives. Despite all these difficulties, I managed to integrate a very efficient energy storage module to my new digital decoder. For this, I used high-end types of the newest electrolytic Tantalum Polymer capacitors with the highest energy density ever currently on the market. As much as 940 µF is actually packed in an extremely small volume - only 7.3 x 6.1 x 4 mm. And all this is rated for 16 Volts. I don't know if all these numbers mean anything to you, but if you want, you can delve deeper into capacitors and check out the latest technological advances in this area to understand why all this is quite expensive. But it is not all - my integrated energy storage module also features thermal and overvoltage protection by means of small LDO chip. The inductor is also present in the module for trouble-free programming and compatibility with braking sections. The only inductor with suitable parameters was automotive-grade type from Coilcraft which is more expensive than other chokes, too. I don't think I have to justify such my choice here either. If you don't know what all this means and what all this is actually for - welcome to DCCWiki, you will learn a lot of new things. But please don't expect that I will do all this for free - developing and producing decoders is indeed a fun for me, but I won't do all this as a charity work. Here is some more information to consider. Some manufacturers offer energy storage models for sale separately. For example, let's remember already mentioned Keep-Alive modules from TCS. They sell them for not less than $30-40: www.tcsdcc.com/keepaliveOf course, I realize that understanding 'decoder for $55' and 'keep-alive for $30' is much easier than 'decoder with integrated keep-alive for $85' for an average customer, but please believe me, production costs aren't lower in the last case. About warrantyThe warranty for all my electronic products is one year from the sale date. Some conditions apply. Warranty information is included in User's Manual for SD40-2 digital decoder which can be downloaded in PDF on the product page where you added these decoders to cart. Printed manual comes with each decoder, too. I will post updated User's Manual in PDF here on the forum in according thread, too. ConclusionIf you don't like my product - don't buy it. If you are not happy with its price - don't buy it. If you don't see any difference between my decoders and others - don't buy my products, they aren't for you, choose something else. If you are concerned about warranty and if you are afraid that you will be left alone if smth happens with my decoder you've purchased - please don't buy my products in any case. If you believe that integrated energy storage module containing expensive high-end components should come as a free add-on, or if you just don't need such a feature - don't buy my product and look for an alternative. Or better develop your own decoder and beat mine with twice less price. Remember cars - someone buys Porsche or Lamborghini, and someone buys an old good Chevy, and no one is angry on each other just because of its existence on the market. Please let others decide on their own whether they need my digital decoders or not. Everyone is free to decide if it makes sense for him to pay such a money for this or that product. It's just a market - nothing personal How to contact meUnfortunately, I have no time to run my own website, but you can get in touch with me here: www.facebook.com/ZmodelltrainsOr here: f.z-freunde-international.de/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1508Drop me a message here: zmodell @ ukr.net Or if you can't wait to argue with me further regarding the pricing, feel free to call me directly right away: Ukraine: +380 50 518 11 18 Germany: +49 160 402 89 58 Best regards, Alex
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 14:15:57 GMT -5
Ed, I alluded to that concept above. So yeah, probably not for the SW1500 for example, that makes sense of course. Now, as I was reading through the SD40-2 thread, there was mention that the board works for all versions of the SD40-2 including the tunnel motors. But ALSO the interesting part is that it appears the board may also work for the SD50's, SD60's, and SD60M's too. THAT is good news, and then it is starting to look like maybe they might standardize on that one board for the six-axle locos going forward. (Since the C44-9W's and AC4400's share the mech with the ES44's, they probably will use the older decoders though I would guess.)
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Post by scalecalamity on Mar 18, 2024 17:07:26 GMT -5
It's interesting for sure, and figured this discussion would best sink in proper well within the catchall-pit. KA is a luxury energy buffer (we all know that), and shouldn't be required in order for a locomotive to traverse or transgress turnouts, let alone tangent track. Good housekeeping habits of keeping track and wheelsets clean, general + regular locomotive maintenance, coupled with track work done proper eliminates that need to rely on it - the scale has long done without it up until now, that's also no secret. What I'm getting at here, is if this Zmodell decoder didn't have those x2 capacitors, would it then be closer to the $50 range? An extra bottom mount smd to feed a light-pipe to non-functional ditch lights surely wouldn't be the reason to drive the price at $80+ now would it. "The functioning of every decoder is fully tested before delivery. Should nevertheless a failure occur, please contact the supplier where you purchased the decoder or directly the manufacturer" - straight from your .pdf, that last part I'm confused about. Who is being considered the manufacturer here//who would be supporting the repair claim and warranty process; you/Zmodell or Doehler & Haass? "If you are concerned about warranty and if you are afraid that you will be left alone if smth happens with my decoder you've purchased - please don't buy my products in any case" - thanks for letting customers know who read this exactly how you feel. Yes, there is a realistic concern someone may need to send a tiny individual decoder overseas. I'm sorry (not sorry) I didn't consult with you before registering on AZLs forum but, I don't believe anyone has to do that with you. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong here but, I believe that is a Mr. Cubbins department; maybe a Kluz might actually do something useful now and then . Nevertheless, I think it makes sense to clarify that I am not new to the scale, hobby, DCC, nor this forum; so no need for the dissertation-like post riddled with sarcasm, and no need to gatekeep open discussion. I hope it's not a reflection of how you treat other customers and figured that would be beneath you; my mistake. I can only imagine how you might speak to someone who actually may need warranty support. "It's great what Alex is designing and the factory is actually producing in 1:220 for AZL products, make no mistake about that" - I guess you conveniently skipped right over that part huh? You're exactly right, it's just a market. General consumer discussion and questions regarding price & warranty are nothing personal, especially on AZLs own platform; they are far from criticism, no need to be triggered; cope. Cool story though - I'm here for the hobby; not personal narratives weaved to push products and their price - nothing personal.
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Post by DAZed on Mar 18, 2024 18:41:39 GMT -5
Well, despite some mildly ruffled feathers, I think this is good dialog and I encourage the two main players to return to your corners and have some water, rest for a sec, take some deep breaths. Regarding the price, we'll truly know that answer as time passes. I will say initially I had in my mind that the price would be well over $100 even discounted, so $85 sort of changed my take a little. I think the benefit of the keepalive is significant, and I think the design and attention to details adds a lot of value too. Note the dim headlights and ditchlights that have been the norm. Of course we don't KNOW that this decoder addresses that yet, but I suspect it will. (so, more time needs to pass...) My bigger concern was the warranty. Funny, I read through that instruction sheet about four times before responding this morning and missed the info about the warranty. Being under the "ATTENTION" header, (and beginning with a comment on static discharge) I assumed that section was more of a section on basic electronics safety and didn't read down far enough to see what I was seeking all along. And I agree that it's not clear what the process for warranty issues would be. I can tell you that most dealers I work with will say send it to the manufacturer, we don't support the product. Yet you seem to indicate at least partial reliance on them that you may not have at your disposal....or maybe you do? (And again....we need more time to assess. If support of the product is very good, that value increases.) And there are other value components. How does the loco run with the decoder, etc. Finally, for those feeling like there aren't options, I cannot imagine that the following won't work with this loco, even if Digitrax and TCS are truly dragging their feet or dropping out altogether. www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/first-azl-rs-3-dcc-conversion.132337 This is Robert Ray's conversion on the RS3 that uses a screw-in board just like the SD40-2. I do think a lot of these discussion points are valid, and may be closer to a version of constructive criticism--versus the anonymous blatently disrespectful type--than was originally thought. So hopefully we can continue on and learn some things...
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Post by scanrail on Mar 18, 2024 20:04:12 GMT -5
Once again, about who is who: I am the manufacturer of this product. I take full responsibility of supporting it, responding to inquires from customers who own it and managing warranty cases. You don't have to contact Doehler & Haass about it - they have their own products for which they are responsible to their customers; I only use their proven technology in my own products. I fully agree that the questions regarding the warranty are absolutely reasonable, so let me make it clear one more time: In case of malfunction, replacement can be easily arranged with any of the sellers who deliver my decoders to customers. So no need to send anything overseas at all. All further steps related to replacement/repair process will be managed by me and the seller; the customer is not involved here anymore. Of course, my warranty does not cover the cases when customer hits the decoder with hammer or connects it directly to the power outlet. Yes, it is a kind of exaggeration, but I hope everyone understands that like any other manufacturer, I expect that customers do know how to use my products. Just like automakers expect car owners to know how to drive a car and therefore will never cover the case when a driver purposefully crashed a car into a wall with a warranty. Also for your info, not even a single replacement request has been received so far for any of my digital products. KA is a luxury energy buffer (we all know that), and shouldn't be required in order for a locomotive to traverse or transgress turnouts, let alone tangent track. Good housekeeping habits of keeping track and wheelsets clean, general + regular locomotive maintenance, coupled with track work done proper eliminates that need to rely on it - the scale has long done without it up until now, that's also no secret. What I'm getting at here, is if this Zmodell decoder didn't have those x2 capacitors, would it then be closer to the $50 range? An extra bottom mount smd to feed a light-pipe to non-functional ditch lights surely wouldn't be the reason to drive the price at $80+ now would it. I don't think it makes any sense to continue arguing about why energy saving module may be needed and for what train model scale it brings the most benefit; I already did it in the previous post. If your housekeeping habits are so good that they don’t even allow you to think about using energy storage modules - then you are a happy man, my congratulations. This is one more reason why you don't need my digital decoders with all these bells and whistles. In the meantime, those who know exactly what benefits they get by using capacitors, don't need any of these long explanations at all. In any case, I believe any further discussion of this subject is useless, since we are speaking all the time about the same, but just in different words. I can only add that in order to sell this stuff for $50, I need to be a big company and to produce these decoders in thousands. Also, I think it makes sense to mention one more small manufacturer of digital decoders from Germany - VELMO. I would suggest you to inquire this manufacturer about why he sells most of his digital decoders for 75-85 Euro (which is even more in USD), while none of these decoders even features any energy storage module, unlike most of my ones: velmo.de/html/-_part_numbers.htmlRegards, Alex
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