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Post by boxcarwilly on Aug 30, 2013 8:59:06 GMT -5
If anyone here is using Marklin turnouts on their layouts, I would greatly appreciate your feedback on a problem I'm having. I am currently using MTL turnouts on my layout and up to now, I haven't had any major problems with any of them. However, this week I have. It seems that for some reason, a few of my turnouts have decided not to conduct power through one side of the turnout. I don't know why this is happening. I've tried everything I can think of short of taking them apart to correct the situation but nothing seems to work satisfactorily. When an engine goes over a specific turnout, depending on if the points are to main or siding, the engine loses power and stalls, yet when it goes over the turnout when the points are in the other direction, there is no power loss. It only happens on certain turnouts and it seems to jump from one side to the other randomly. One time I have power through the main, and the next time I don't but I have power to the siding. It's quite bewildering and as I've said I've tried everything I can think of to remedy the problem. Shimming, cleaning the track ends on both the turnout and the adjoining tracks, cleaning the entire turnout over and over again, even inspecting the turnout to see if perhaps it might be bent. I've also checked all electrical connections all the way back to the control panel but I'm damned if I can find the problem. I've heard from several sources that Marklin turnouts are far more superior to MTL in that they are more efficient in operation and are much more reliable. I have never used Marklin track for anything so I don't know if this is true. I'm told that the power transfer on these turnouts is quite a bit different then MTL which seems to be the reason they work much better. But before I plunge ahead and replace my problem turnouts with Marklin, I'd like to get some opinions from those who use them. Perhaps even some ideas on how to correct the problem I'm currently experiencing. Oh and I have also researched the Rohakan turnouts as well, and I like the idea of the plug and play set up and I understand they are far superior to both MTL and Marklin turnouts. The problem being the control boxes are quite large and cumbersome. I don't know if they would work with Atlas's switch controllers.
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Post by markm on Aug 30, 2013 12:08:13 GMT -5
Willy, If you can see the turnout reliably changing direction, the issue has to be in the turnout. The description sounds like binding in the power switching mechanics. The only time I've had this problem was during initial track laying and it was because the switching machine wasn't sitting properly in the turnout and wasn't moving the mechanics to full swing. Does this happen with different locomotive models? And where along the turnout do they stall? MTL is known to have tight clearance to the frog and I could also see certain locos riding up on the frog and losing connection to the track. I've used all three types of turnouts without any significant problems (knock on wood). My preferences are based more on looks and construction issues than anything else. If you use the Marklin, you'll have to install a road bed that's about 100 mils thick. The switch machine is a bit larger than MTL and I've found it's real easy to contaminate it with paint or glue from landscaping and not always easy to disguise. I like the Rokuhan turnouts the best for the way trains ride over them and the under track switch machine. I'm using them for at least 3 siding on my new layout. I don't care much for the tie spacing, but in most cases on my layout its not particularly noticable. The switch machine being under the track is also sensitive to contamination. The two wire control power is probably the problem for most people. I believe the Atlas controller is a three and would not work. The only difference between 2 and 3 wire control is the physical electrical switch, so the control boxes don't have to be big and in fact could be the Atlas units with a different switch.
Hope this helps and good luck with your problem
Mark
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Post by boxcarwilly on Aug 31, 2013 9:26:53 GMT -5
Mark
Thanks so much for the insight and suggestions. Yes the power loss happens on pretty much all my engines and it seems to be happening as the engine enters the frog area of the turnout from any direction. It happens randomly. Sometimes through the straight and other times through the divergence. It's quite bazaar actually. Some of the turnouts that this is happening to have been installed in my layout for a few years now, but there is one that was just recently installed this summer that it's happening to. Whenever I install any MTL turnout, I have used very thin strips of styrene fore and apt of the underside slider and again at the entry points of the turnout just to be sure there is no binding or sticking. I have taken this latest turnout up and looked at it from track level from all sides to see if maybe it was bent, but I can't see anything that would indicate this. I'm wondering now if the base of my layout at these turnouts has somehow shifted and caused dips or heaves enough to affect the operation of the turnouts. I don't know.
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Post by markm on Aug 31, 2013 10:40:16 GMT -5
Willy, One thought since the last post would be to build a couple of test jigs: basically two 9V light bulbs wired to some small alligator clips. Clip one side of each bulb to a rail and the other side of both bulbs to the frog. Power up and start switching the turnout. DO the light alternately light? Do they flicker when they change? Is there a difference between electrically switching them and manual operation? It might help explain what the turnout is doing. I do much of my "dirty" model work in a garage that can be 110 degrees in July and 22 degrees in December and found that I shouldn't lay track at those extremes and I have experience with the layout changing shape, but it would seem unlikely in your case. You might consider using a metal straight edge (with the power turned off) and see if the turnout is uneven from the main outer rail, across the frog and to the divergent inner rail. Compare the working and faulty turnouts. Right now, I'm working from memory for how MTL routes power. I may have some additional thoughts when I get home and look at the turnouts tonight.
Hopes this helps,
Mark
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Post by boxcarwilly on Aug 31, 2013 18:46:08 GMT -5
Hey Mark.
The straight edge idea is a good one. I should have thought of that. Likewise with the bulbs. I wonder if that idea would work with an ohm meter. My layout is in my basement where the temperature is pretty much constant winter and summer but I suppose humidity could get into the wood frame and warp it over time. I shall investigate further.
Thanks
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Post by boxcarwilly on Sept 9, 2013 10:42:43 GMT -5
I think I may have solved my power loss problem on a one of my turnouts. On the two short track pieces that enter the frog, there is a small gap between the track and the actual frog. On close examination and comparison with other turnouts, I notice that this gap seemed to be a little wider then on other turnouts. I very gently removed the roadbed and track joiners and with a very small hammer, tapped these two tracks back so the gap wasn't so wide. After putting the turnout back in operation and testing engines over it, I found that there was no power loss. I really don't know if that was the reason for the loss or if something was lose inside and my tapping the tracks with the hammer fixed it. It's a mystery to be sure, but this one works. I also added some thin styrene under the turnout and all inbound and outbound tracks making sure to leave enough room for the underside slider to move unhindered. My problem at least for this turnout in this location is solved, now I have to figure out if this is the same problem with the other two which are in more difficult places to get at and inbound and outbound tracks are glued down and ballasted. I'll try shimming first as this would be the least messy way to solve the problem and go from there. We shall see.
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Post by markm on Sept 10, 2013 16:08:22 GMT -5
Glad to hear you're posting process. Of course if AZL would just add battery backup to their locos, this wouldn't be a problem!
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Post by boxcarwilly on Sept 11, 2013 10:33:48 GMT -5
Not a bad idea Mark
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Post by domi on Oct 1, 2013 0:34:29 GMT -5
Still the issue with Z scale turnouts, as long as no major player releases a sample like what manufacturers such as Shinohara, Atlas or Microengineering release for N or HO.. Still the choice between Marklin's 40-year old toyish looking samples, excellent but non-US style Rokuhan's or rather disappointingly reliable MTL's. That's why I finally ordered Fast Tracks templates for my future layout...
But the last night as I was fully awake an idea came to my mind: I believe I'm going to dismantle one of my unused MTL turnouts, removing all what is underneath including the circuit board. Then I'll solder a feeder on the point's hinge, such as the true power-routing turnout I'm dreaming of. And I'll connect the feeder to a + - switch, thus giving a full electrical supply to the points. I'll let you know the result. Event if these turnouts are no way visually the same level than a non-roadbeded US-style N scale Atlas or Shinohara turnout I'm dreaming of for Z, they don't look odd and if I can obtain a 100% reliable turnout following this way that could be a better option to me than building the 40+ FT turnouts I'm needing for my future layout.
Dom
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Post by boxcarwilly on Oct 3, 2013 10:47:16 GMT -5
Dom.
I'm not sure of how you are going to accomplish this but it doesn't matter. If you're successful, and it looks reasonably good, perhaps your should patent and market it. I think we all would like to have a 100% reliable turnout that doesn't cost and arm and a leg but will never let you down. A plug and operate kind of deal like Rokuhan's turnouts would be a great addition also. I look forward to your success. Good luck.
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Post by Admin on Oct 3, 2013 13:07:52 GMT -5
Dom, Another possible alternative is to have a look at some eBay sellers who build and sell completed Fast Tracks Z turnouts. Given how good the FT turnouts work and look, it may be a viable option. John www.raildig.com(Yep, it used to be Ztrains.com!)
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Post by domi on Oct 10, 2013 16:19:37 GMT -5
Thanks for your input folks. Please be sure I'll let you know the progress. About FT I'm already in contact with one guy, he made me a first batch of 10 samples but I don't know whether he'll be able to continue...
Dom
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Post by shamoo737 on Oct 10, 2013 21:56:11 GMT -5
Dom, did you get it from John in NJ?
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Post by domi on Oct 12, 2013 3:13:21 GMT -5
I don't even know where this guy comes from. But true, his first name is John and his email address starts with "scott". I'm still waiting for a second batch of 10 turnouts from him, but as he apparently had an heavy surgery to deal with I don't know when I receive my samples. On another hand I ordered FT some gigs and templates a few weeks ago, I should receive them shortly. That's definitly the kind of turnout I'm needing. Best look, and best operation as it's power routing. On my current layout I'm using Wright samples, which are perfect as well, but they are no more available. But If I'm pleased with the modifications I'll carry out on my MTL turnouts, maybe I won't bother building FT turnouts beyond the gigs I'm due to receive... But I don't plan to establish a license nor a business with this! I'll only let you know how I proceed. Dom
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Post by boxcarwilly on Oct 12, 2013 9:45:22 GMT -5
Hey Dom.
Here's a thought for you. During the construction phase of your turnouts, or redesign of your MTL's what about adding built in terminals to connect signals such as bi-polar to operate when the points change? If they connect directly to the turnout, you wouldn't need separate wiring back to your panel or to a relay and you could connect as many signals as needed up and down rail. Of course you'd need enough power behind it for operations. Just a thought.
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