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Post by ghoffman on Dec 28, 2019 23:57:04 GMT -5
Christmas 1974 was when I received my first set. I was newly stationed in Germany and showed my wife the train shoppe in Kaiserslautern with the Maerklin sets. I’ve run that tank engine a number of times around the loop since then
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Post by smr on Dec 29, 2019 5:40:30 GMT -5
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Post by Admin on Jan 1, 2020 1:44:55 GMT -5
We had a local hobby shop on our Wall Street here in Huntington Village, NY. It must have been 1976 or or so and I had an N scale boxed set, Little Joe maybe? I ended up making free standing tunnel / mountain pieces and selling them to this local hobby shop. It was there I saw one of the Marklin display cases with the Orient Express set and it was like seeing the Crown Jewels behind the display case glass. Left with an 8800 as I couldn't afford the Orient Express The burger shop near the hobby shop, good burgers and they had a train running around the counter top! John
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Post by tjdreams on Jan 1, 2020 10:22:41 GMT -5
It was around 1988-1989 (Late 1980's) when i saw and bought my first Marklin Z scale starter set. We had a huge 10' x 14' Lionel O gauge Christmas Train layout up and i planned to use it as a Garden train behind one of the O gauge houses. I've been collecting and modeling Z gauge ever since. Little did i know back then how big this tiny Train Addiction would become. I went from having a dozen or so O gauge train sets with all the operating accessories to a couple hundred HO gauge trains and onto over a thousand Z scale trains. The funny thing was I Started collecting Z because i didn't have enough room for the bigger ones anymore and now my Z gauge collection takes up more room than the O and Ho collection combined ever did.
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Post by texrail on Jan 3, 2020 6:22:18 GMT -5
Mark,
I`m curious what´s your interpretation of the poll. For me, it shows a steady flow of newcomers when you are looking at the numbers in 10-year blocks. It´s always by 15 voters (more or less) with a slightly increase in the first decade. That might be a good sign for the growing z scale comunity. The stable numbers in the following decades shows, that quality and variety is good enough to fascinate us over many many years.
Yeah!
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Post by ProgressRail on Jan 3, 2020 11:55:21 GMT -5
I'm curious myself what direction the OP will try to take his personal conclusion(s) with this small of a poll...some how I feel age is going to be involved here for some reason or another, as that seems to be a popular & sensitive subject matter for older generations to drag into a debate over...continuing to beat a dead horse. There are 700+ members...46 poll results here.
IMO, the limited results show that 1:220 has been, and simply is, stagnant. AZL continues to be the only one setting and progressing the market [along w/ MTL] and only an extremely small number of 3rd party detail suppliers/makers then tend to just, disappear. I see people moving on to other more progressive & popular scales that have a much wider availability and diversity...but, still collect and make a z_scale purchase every now n' then if it fits into their era. They are still involved in 1:220 but, perhaps it is no longer their primary scale at this point anymore.
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Post by DAZed on Jan 3, 2020 13:21:20 GMT -5
IMO, the limited results show that 1:220 has been, and simply is, stagnant. AZL continues to be the only one setting and progressing the market [along w/ MTL] and only an extremely small number of 3rd party detail suppliers/makers then tend to just, disappear. I see people moving on to other more progressive & popular scales that have a much wider availability and diversity...but, still collect and make a z_scale purchase every now n' then if it fits into their era. They are still involved in 1:220 but, perhaps it is no longer their primary scale at this point anymore.
And I gotta say, I'm curious at how you arrived at all of this? I see Atlas jumping into Z in the last couple of years and an amazing amount of new products from AZL in that same timeframe. I see some incredible 3D printing going on, and some new laser structures that are astounding. Rokuhan doesn't seem to be backing down at any level. "Achieving Critical Mass" might be happening in Z sooner than we think. With the looming RS3's and a sorely needed intermodal car coming from AZL, that might open others to dip their toe in. Who knows if the Atlas move might raise eyebrows with others that haven't entered the Z arena...maybe even Intermountain will give Z another shot. |
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Post by ProgressRail on Jan 3, 2020 14:50:36 GMT -5
And I gotta say, I'm curious at how you arrived at all of this? 
Atlas is hardly "jumping" at z_scale...they have entered the market and tested it's waters, yes. Track is a basic, keyword here "basic", foundation of model railroading. For Atlas to assess and see an actual need to produce code 55 track & switches because the scale severely needed it to even grow, isn't saying much at all...being that z has been around since the 1970's [n_scale in the 1960's...make the comparison yourself], yet...seeing a need to enter a completely new market for them with track? I wouldn't be holding my breath on #7's, let alone #5s and track joiners if I were you, same with Intermountain giving 1:220 another go. As for 3D printing, what scale_hobby doesn't have 3D printing? And about laser structures...please, point me in the direction of readily available contemporary/modern laser structures to pair with modern z freight, intermodal, and ES44s...yes...modern wooden railroad structures and industries? .:end sarcasm:.
I have nothing really to say about Rokuhan because I do not model Japanese railroads; but their track makes for excellent prefabbed plastic roadbed break-in track for DC/DCC units. I personally wouldn't model with it though since code 55 and ballast exists.
...that's kinda how I arrived at all this...
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Post by DAZed on Jan 3, 2020 21:05:59 GMT -5
Me triggered, ha ok...one of us seems to *really hate* z-scale...and given the negativity and doom you insist exists in Z-scale spanning your past two posts, you're lurking in a very peculiar place.  I just thought it interesting that you dismissed the OP's age-based (maybe? ...not sure we even know this to be true yet) postulation, yet formed your own theory that is equally as subjective.
Having been in n-scale for almost 25 years, I could argue those sky-is-falling points about N even as recently as 6-7 years ago when HO sound was really putting a dent in N, and N hadn't recovered well from the recession and multiple plant closings that shook up the industry. (incidentally, one of the reasons I took a hard look at Z) Yet now, N has made a big resurgence. But, I know more than a few N-scalers that are either shifting to Z or back to HO/HOn3/et al. And those folks (myself included) aren't multi-scaling....I sold the farm and am Z only for the foreseeable future. I'll concede you don't think I count for whatever reason, and that's your prerogative. (attacking my post count??? What the ? ? ?  I never claimed to have more experience or know more...I'm a relative newbie to Z, but I've been a model RR all my 40-something years pretty much. But an NMRA master model railroader I am not.)
I can tell you that Atlas track has tipped the scales for a lot of guys. And yes, 3D printing is available in all scales, but printing an HO car is infinitely less forgiving since the larger expanses of flat surfaces are more prone to the orientation/washboard effect and generally the cost versus detail level makes HO models a little more of a decision point whereas you can print an entire car in Z for a lot cheaper and the fact of less detail isn't as big of a deal. (i.e. you don't get that level of detail across the board in Z anyway, so you're not losing much)
You're clearly glass-half-empty, and I'm clearly not, and that's ok. Which is again sort of my point...the O.P. also has a possibly/likely differing opinion than either of us, too.
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Post by domi on Jan 4, 2020 7:53:43 GMT -5
1st Z scale stuff in 1997 : a MTL F7 and a few boxcars. Still a more or less active Z-scaler 23 years after, even if I won't be as active as I would want until retirement...
Dom
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Post by ProgressRail on Jan 4, 2020 10:45:03 GMT -5
You're right. I have invested multiple-thousands and my time into a scale you keyboard_claim I "hate". In fact, I just finally received my MTL desert victory units yesterday and more ltd. ed. MCZ containers + 53' trailers because I really hate it that much? No... I call things out the way I see them and how they really are; no candy-coating or holding hands. Some people call it being negative and "glass-half-empty", other people call it being realistic and honest; it's that simple. I don't ignore issues nor problems that exist by turning a blind eye. Everyone that participates does not get an award...birth certificates don't count either.
We are not hi-jacking this guys thread though. Where I went with the OP's poll results is possibly related to new-comers in z_scale...low results showing in the under-a-year to 5years categories + sustainability, compared to 10+ years. However, this poll is only representing like 6% of the members to boot. I think they take a look at what is available and see that a large majority of items are OOP, sold out/not available, not even produced, and the absolute worst...items being scalped on ebay for some ridiculous arbitrary price, and sadly people fall for it [plagues every hobby]. People involved 10+years maybe think of being too invested so why switch scales at their age?
But, more importantly, they only see 1 company...1...setting some sort of standard for a modern market and basically controlling it via whatever pricing formula they use; all with virtually no pre-orders nor consistent announcements...it is what it is; random & unannounced, with no competition. Then, they look at other scales to compare with what they want to model and...well, go from there. [This all pertains to US prototype equipment and track; not German, not Japanese, and not questionable 3D-print quality you then need the right available decals for; alps or laser printer is not included with your purchase, sorry...not sorry].
If larger companies from N and/or HO wanted to get involved in 1:220, I really believe they would of done it by now. The bigger picture being painted here is if you removed AZL and MTL from z_scale, what are you buying? Then make the same comparison with a company in N or HO. That comparison alone is plenty enough to sway people to other scales after so long. Doesn't mean they left z entirely or don't appreciate efforts being made in z, it just means they don't want to be 90 or dead before the scale progresses more and have moved on.
I mean...should we even bring up the larger elephant in the room here; poll states "modeling in z"...not "collecting in z"...the audacity to even bring that up though right? I just emptied my glass with that...yet, still invest and love/hate 1:220. ♥z&azl
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Post by DAZed on Jan 4, 2020 13:02:29 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing the statistic relevancy of the poll. I doubt most polls conducted informally on the Internet qualify...especially not on model railroading forums. Yet--as you stated--this is a discussion forum so here we are.  I don't really have a strong opinion on the poll. The 1-10, 10-20, and 20+ seem to be pretty evenly distributed and it would be hard to argue some point with that breakout...I suppose if you want to get granular with the 1-10 year groups. I'm approaching my 5th year anniversary so he better hurry and close the poll! 
And I doubt too many folks disagree with your assessments but daaang why so negative? It's a hobby. If your concern is drawing more people to Z or why they are leaving or reluctant to enter Z, do you really think blasting everything about Z-scale is going to somehow fix that? I assume you agree that the only way new manufacturers enter the Z game is with more market share, right? It's easy to paint a bleak picture about anything in life, but how about promoting Z and generating positive buzz and letting people decide for themselves how miserable they are?
Anyone with an ounce of patience can get the items they want in Z as long as they don't have to have them yesterday. If one actually pretends that AZL and MTL and Full Throttle *haven't* closed their doors, there is a nice flow of monthly releases of product. You say "if larger companies from N and/or HO wanted to get involved in 1:220, I really believe they would of done it by now" and then turn around and dismiss Atlas who JUST did exactly that? That's not simply "not sugar coating"...that's the polar opposite of sugar coating. According to Atlas, flex sales have been very strong, and they've completely sold out of two runs of turnouts, and they've announced they are working on more products to expand the line. Atlas will never do anything else? We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
And btw, I'm not here to defend AZL...anyone who has been in Z for 5 seconds knows how they operate and it's unfortunate...on that we can agree. See, I can be negative too. But even at that, AZL does have its moments...and they deliver some really nice products. For every time they completely blow off customer service, they'll turn around and come through...so it could be worse. A 50% satisfaction rating is quite good in some industries....airlines come to mind.  But the reality is they can do what they want unless/until competition comes along. Sometimes that is just the way things work. I have the same feelings about Microsoft...I have to do business with them, but I just have to take a shower after dealing with them.   I do have to give credit where credit is due...Rob K at least has been a little more helpful of late so maybe they are trying to turn over a new leaf.
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Post by ProgressRail on Jan 4, 2020 14:16:44 GMT -5
I'm fun at parties...swear to god; even more with a few drinks in me and deck of cards!
I do try to promote Z via Instagram since I noticed it was severely lacking there and is very popular with teenagers + young adults. More than I can say for just posting text around on AZLs member forum; as I don't see that as really promoting to already members or outside new-comers? I don't believe in Trainboards ridiculous censorship fairy-tale land as I'm from the United States, so that's out. I made time to be able to setup and display at NTS a few years ago with a buddy, donated to zcentralstation, z-track subscriptions before...
So as far as promoting the scale goes...while working on call 24/7/365...but we aren't insinuating anything about that, are we now? Just because I haven't "blah, blah, blah" 1000+ positive posts to achieve a fantasy e-member title doesn't mean I'm not actively promoting the scale here; I look at the good, the bad and the ugly...recognizing the pendulum swings both ways. Mark or a moderator needed to ban and lock this thread yesterday, lol.
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Post by bloodynose on Jan 5, 2020 0:19:02 GMT -5
I remember seeing an advertisement in the early 70s... Marklin was introducing Z scale! I was about 10 or 11 years old and had already disassembled my dad's American Flyer steam locomotive to see how it worked (He was not Happy) and was amazed that there could be a working model train that was so small! And expensive! And so toy like with the massive couplers! So I messed with N scale a little but still as a kid with no dedication or permanent place to model. Always wanted to build a nice model train layout but until about 10 years ago it wasn't possible. Got into G scale a little but wow you need a country acre to do anything more than a figure 8!
So I went back to look at Z... (2013 I think) and to my surprise there was MTL and AZL with much more prototypical looking models than Marklin and also US railroads! Neither one had a large selection at the time. AZL brass was way out of my price range! But there seemed to be enough interest to have these companies make a go at it and make highly detailed injection molded locos and rolling stock(No one dives into a business to lose money)! And with 3 track manufacturers I decided it was worth the gamble that I could at least aquire enough to satisfy my humble little plans. But AZL especially has really invested in offering a wide spectrum of locomotives, freight, and passenger cars that are not only highly detailed but also road name specific.
So I decided to model in Z for 2 reasons... the small area needed for a decent layout [And] the uniqueness and coolness factor of something that is fairly rare... can't buy them in Walmart!
And remember... this is a hobby... if you can't buy what you want you will have to fab it yourself!
Mark
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Post by markm on Jan 5, 2020 2:53:07 GMT -5
I must apologize for not posting sooner, but this thread has definitely gone beyond my original expectations and has, IMO, brought up a number of interesting issues that are worth additional discussion, that I'm still working on.
As to the original purpose of the poll, during discussions at the retirement gathering, I mentioned that I model Z, which brings up the usual silence and blank stares. But this time Roger's wife added that Z had been good, compared to some other scales. The poll is a rough partitioning of the hobby with expenditures decreasing with time.
I do have to say that the equal binning of decadal blocks, as texrail pointed out, surprised me. I really expected the first ten years to be smaller, although validating the numbers against the number of posts I've made starting with "Welcome to Z..." to new members, it should perhaps be larger for <2 years.
As for the validity of the poll, I have no delusions that it is totally unbiased, no poll is. It's a poll of people active in Z and liking AZL products and the snappy repartee of it's user forum. To that end, the poll should be considered a sample of 282 members: those who have logged in in the past year and have posted at least on message.
I would like to thanks everyone who participated, particularly dancooks ad tilbury who took the extra effort to join the forum to vote.
I'm off to a show tomorrow, so I'll get back to this on Monday.
Mark
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I just thought it interesting that you dismissed the OP's age-based (maybe? ...not sure we even know this to be true yet) postulation, yet formed your own theory that is equally as subjective.
I never claimed to have more experience or know more...I'm a relative newbie to Z, but I've been a model RR all my 40-something years pretty much. But an NMRA master model railroader I am not.) 
I don't really have a strong opinion on the poll. The 1-10, 10-20, and 20+ seem to be pretty evenly distributed and it would be hard to argue some point with that breakout...I suppose if you want to get granular with the 1-10 year groups. I'm approaching my 5th year anniversary so he better hurry and close the poll! 
But the reality is they can do what they want unless/until competition comes along. Sometimes that is just the way things work. I have the same feelings about Microsoft...I have to do business with them, but I just have to take a shower after dealing with them. 
I do have to give credit where credit is due...Rob K at least has been a little more helpful of late so maybe they are trying to turn over a new leaf.
