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Post by husafreak on Dec 31, 2019 21:07:49 GMT -5
I got both of my AZL ES44AC's running on DCC via the NCE PowerCab today, using TCS AZL4 boards. Thank you all for your help, I'm pretty happy with this! It was a bit of a puzzle with the first one but a snap with the second. I got intermittent operation at first. The loco would only run with the body off. I realized the loco operation was affected by touching the board. Eventually I realized that the frame clips at the front of the loco body were not pinching the board hard enough for a good contact. I now fully understand Jeff's instructions! But since there was no solder on my TCS boards and they popped into place effortlessly i thought I was home free (you are never home free in Z!). For the first loco I pinched the frame clips with needle nose pliers to get a snug fit and good connection. For the second loco I put solder on the frame contact pads of the AZL4 circuit board and whittled the blobs down until I had a snug fit into the frame clips and a secure connection. And yes the TCS board is thinner than the stock board. Programming went well and after running both loco's I assigned them their long addresses and had a great time running them together using the recall feature on my big practice layout. But at this point I found another unusual thing, One loco is running very linearly with 28 steps on the throttle, step one is a crawl and it accelerates linearly up to a nice top speed. But the other loco is taking off and moving right along at throttle step one. I think it reaches maximum speed at mid throttle but is actually a tiny bit slower than the loco that is linear when both are racing around the track at step 28. So I ended my studies before combining the two loco's into a consist as they are not throttling up the same. I didn't knowingly change any settings in the PowerCab besides those required to assign a long address to each loco. But I did get lost at one point in the programming and scrolled through a few pages so I suppose I may have inadvertently changed something then. Maybe someone could give me a clue of where to look? I'll continue reading the manual. I will say that soldering, an exacto knife, an Optivisor, a digital multimeter, Kapton tape, a micrometer and black paint all came in handy today... Neither AZL loco had any insulating tape on the frame initially. It was a bit of a fiddle but I got tiny strips of Kapton tape in the right places, between the motor contacts and the frame in the area where the AZL4 board contacts meet them. One of my AZL4 boards had a motor contact soldered in at an angle and sticking out from the board a bit, I hit it with my soldering iron and moved it into correct position. My AZL loco's glow in the dark and that turned out to be because the interior of the body is only painted in spots, I added some flat black in there. I can see how one would go about adding separate ditch lights as all the light pipes are there. It would require terminating them at a new LED in a sealed light box. I'm in no hurry to try that! Happy New Year everyone!
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Post by markm on Jan 1, 2020 10:32:18 GMT -5
Pleased to read that things went well for you. Regarding the speed difference between locomotive that is normal and there are fixes in the decoder for that. Typically there is about a 10-20% variation between specific locomotives: between model types and even in the same model and production run. Typically the range of speed curves looks something like: Generally the curve is quite linear. I do this in DC before I DCC a locomotive to get an idea of the performance. You can do the same thing with a DCC locomotive measuring each speed step. The decoder has setting to correct the variations and any non-linearity. The more basic, what I've found to be adequate are: CV 2 - Start voltage (step 1) CV 6 - Midrange voltage (step 14) CV 5 - Maximum voltage (Step 28) (page 52 in the Powercab manual). Values are an 8 bit fraction of the track voltage, i.e. 128 is 128/255 or 50% or 6V. In the real world, freight and general-purpose locomotives generally max out at 65-75 MPH and passenger locomotives at 85-100MPH. I've been setting CV 5 to match in scale). The other two take some fiddling. Hope this helps, Mark
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Post by husafreak on Jan 1, 2020 13:14:02 GMT -5
Thanks Mark! That section was all I could see just skimming through about adjusting loco speeds so I'll play with those values today. I saw something about doing a factory reset but I am not sure if that applies to the PowerCab only or to the DCC board. Am I changing settings in the DCC board from the PowerCab? Or am I changing the settings in the PowerCab that it uses to command the DCC board? I ran those loco's with DC quite a bit and they would both run very slowly so something is odd. They were not exactly the same speed when running together on a DC track but close enough that I had no qualms about joining them in a consist. Anyway, I need to slow the fast one down. I will also follow your practice to slow the locos to a reasonable top speed in CV5, i never run my trains fast anyway, I like them slow or just enough to look scale like and keep their momentum around the track and through the turnouts. Now that I think of it I was dumb to run them at top speed! That wall wart is 13.8v. Luckily it was brief and no damage was done.
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Post by markm on Jan 1, 2020 13:38:27 GMT -5
The factory reset (CV 8) resets all the decoder CVs to factory values. The value you use depends on the manufacturer. I believe TCS is 2. I encourage a factory reset once you know a decoder is responding. It has been reported here and elsewhere that decoders can exhibit odd functionally that disappears with a reset.
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Post by BAZman on Jan 1, 2020 15:49:50 GMT -5
For the TCS decoders, I though I mentioned to turn off the BEMF !!! CV61+0. TCS admitted that they use the HO algorithm so they don't 'see' the super low currents of the Z motors. The speeder isn't supplying enough feed back to meet their threshold.
You should always 'see' how your locos run with 'direct' PWM control, meaning no decoder compensation so Speed Step 1 has the lowest % 'on' time and if it doesn't crawl, there is friction that has not been overcome yet.
This is why DCC and PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) controllers like the original Joerger and others can make locos crawl at low speeds, compared to direc DC motor where the applied voltage is so low that it is near impossible to start a Permanent Magnet motor, compared to full voltage pulses of DCC and PWM controllers, even if the pulses are very short in time (1:60th for crude controllers up to the 1:10,000 or 1:25,000 used by DCC controllers)
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Post by husafreak on Jan 1, 2020 16:33:33 GMT -5
Thanks Jeff I'll do that later. I do remember you mentioning that but it was a bit over my head. Now that I am using the PowerCab I can understand how to do that but FWIW one of my loco's is working perfectly with no effort and the other is not after a lot of effort. I am glad I did two of them because the good one proves the system. I did a Factory Reset by putting 2 in the CV8. After that the loco is running in reverse. I spent a couple hours and got a variety of results. With some Can Not Read CV messages. Those triggered me to reset the loco address and that always worked. No final solution though. I did that reset but not all that sure I did it correctly. The PowerCab isn't giving me enough feedback as a new operator to be sure I'm on the right track. I did get the problem loco to run slowly and throttle linearly by entering the Motor Control Parameters as listed on page 50 of the manual. But running opposite to the direction shown on the PowerCab screen. I tried to change the direction of the loco so it will correspond to the PowerCab FWD/REV using the Set Decoder Configuration (Option 3) sequence shown on page 38. I did that several times but never managed to change the operation of travel. And now my loco is starting to run poorly. It still runs backwards, but now the lights are flickering and it hesitates at the very slow speeds that it could not achieve initially. This loco has never done that before. I saw the lights switch direction during some of the hesitations and decided to stop for now. It runs smoothly at higher speeds. All through this whenever I put my good loco on the track it operates perfectly. I am confident that I'll get this sorted, as long as the DCC board is not faulty.
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Post by BAZman on Jan 1, 2020 19:40:25 GMT -5
These are 2 good page links: tcsdcc.com/documentationtcsdcc.com/techsupportThere decoder data sheets and their Comprehensive Programming Guide are Grandma-grade easiest guide to follow !!! The programming of the various CV's are nicely grouped with CLEAR examples. And, the Lighting progamming has Color waveforms! Your track, wheels bay be getting dirty plus, axle-truck-chassis contact and, PC board to frame and, motor tab contacts could all be contributing. I a small weight on the PC board to try and get more contact during these moments. CV8 set to 2 *should* reset/recover a loco. It will then be tested at Addess 3 (not 03, but 3). The Cab I think shows 0003 but it is still just 3. If it runs "backward' there is nothing I can think of installation wise that would do that. Was it running forward on DC and after initial DCC programming? Check CV29. It should be an Even number for NDOT (Normal Direction of Travel). If it is Odd, then I am not sure what TCS is defaulting. On the Cab, Prgm+4, (reference: Pg 48 (1) Std pgrm Enter, Enter to acknowledge the Decoder info (if these FREQUENTLY pop up, then you likely will also write bad data) 1 for Setup Addressing Enter to skip address 3) 1 for Long Address, ####, Enter, Activate this address? (1) Yes You will now be at the Set Config ? screen (you really need to do this *and* the last step of this Config is: Activate this Address? (1) Yes DIRection Bit > Enter (for Forward) Enter (Speed Steps 28) Enter (DC Mode NO) Enter (Advanced . . .) Enter (Std Speed Table [this is the 3 CV's 2, 5 & 6] *remember: CV5 is the Top/Fast and CV6 is the MID !!!! (1) Long Address Activate (this one is important for Digitrax Decoders and maybe TCS as it turns the Forward light on when you place it on the track !!!! Setup Motor Control? (no, not now, so just push Esc on Cab The loco should run Forward
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Post by BAZman on Jan 1, 2020 19:47:22 GMT -5
Here are some TCS doc's they don't have on the site, at least I could not find them by search:
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Post by husafreak on Jan 2, 2020 16:01:52 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll look at the links and study some today from my hotel room. The loco in question was running FWD/REV properly on DC and also after initial DCC programming, but it was moving pretty fast at throttle step 1. My attempts to correct that have led to everything else. I'm guessing I input bad data at some point. I'll also make sure the wheels and contacts are clean, and maybe reseat the board and check for continuity before I wade back into programming.
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Post by husafreak on Jan 4, 2020 12:33:11 GMT -5
Success! I believe the difficulty was caused by my inexperience with the PC (PowerCab) and some weirdness also. The confusion was generally how many digits to enter, 3 or 003 type of stuff, and Program on Main vs Program Track where you cannot see the cv values on the main but you can on the program track, and the loco is either long or short address but never both, I actually tried going back and forth between the two during programming, I now realize that won’t work. A lot of this was cleared up by spending time watching you tube videos, and very carefully following button pressing procedure and effect. The weirdness is for one the backwards operation of the loco. I began this morning with a factory reset, CV8=2 and the loco ran forward, it also ran at correct speed steps, I mean throttle step 1 was a crawl. I then programmed the long address and weirdness two is that a 4 digit loco number popped up which I had also seen before but was not mine, and it was not 0000 or 9999, it may be that this loco or board had been used before me? Anyway I changed it to my loco’s road number and off it went at a good clip at throttle step 1. Right back where I started but wiser now. I learned from the videos and you guys that a common requirement is to change CV’s 2/6/5 and I knew to use the program track to see the previously set CV’s. Surprise, CV2 was set to 155. I did not ever enter that! I checked my TCS manual and set CV2 to 0, I checked and CV5/6 were both also 0. Bottom line, after a factory reset entering a long address was changing CV2 to 155, end of story! I can’t imagine why that would happen but at least it explains the confusion, I’ll never know why it ran in reverse too, that could have been my doing. I am happily running my ES44AC’s now on the same track. I see that #9371 is ever so slightly faster than #9360 so it gets to pull Now it’s time to turn off BEMF, limit top speed, and learn to program a consist. I am confident I know what I am doing now. But maybe more questions will follow. As next up is the DZ123MO DCC board in an MTL loco...
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Post by husafreak on Jan 4, 2020 13:52:57 GMT -5
I played with changing CV29, now I see that an odd value for CV29 reverses the direction the loco goes. I’ll never know how an odd value got in there. It appears the CV29=38 is the factory default. This allows running on analog DC track. The manual says that is not recommended. But I like the flexibility to run them on my analog DC track. Or is this a bad habit to get into? I set the max voltage in motor control to 192 (%75). It is still fast but hopefully a safe voltage. I’ll do a track distance, time, scale speed conversion later and set it to a realistic top speed. I set CV61=0 the trains run the same. And I’ll avoid future issues with BEMF. I can see that the loco I had trouble programming is occasionally a bit jittery around the track compared to my other loco, I will give it a thorough cleaning now.
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Post by husafreak on Jan 16, 2020 2:09:23 GMT -5
I keep taking my troublesome loco apart hoping to improve its running with little luck. I will start another thread looking for advice about how to get it running well.
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Post by BAZman on Jan 16, 2020 15:38:01 GMT -5
Weird that if you Program track, Address, skip past '3' (just press Enter) and the Long address is whacko, not 0000. So, you enter your favorite 3 or 4 digit number (Enter) and next step prompts "Activate this Address" (1 for Yes). Next, you are Promoted to Config? (1 for Yes) Press Enter of each until Long Address shows up (Activate this Address?" 1 for yes. Next, you are prompted for the Motor? (1 for yes) Good values of 175 for CV5 (max) and I usually set CV6 (Mid) to 1/2 that value. Yard switchers or some Main show people set CV6 (Mid) to 2/3 or even 3/4 of CV5 (Max). This gives a much wider range and more resolution but can give you that faster 'passing mode after reaching that 2/3 or 3/4 threshold. NCE does show '0" for the values but they are the same as 255 (they don't used Speed Step numbers ) but these characteristics are only for NCE. MRC, Digitrack, etc use different nomenclature. You can just press Enter to skip through the rest, unless you need to Remap, etc.
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Post by husafreak on Mar 21, 2020 12:00:58 GMT -5
I keep taking my troublesome loco apart hoping to improve its running with little luck. I will start another thread looking for advice about how to get it running well. In frustration I put a new AZL4 board in my intermittent loco. Still stuttering! Lights blinking! But I know it’s not the board. I finally figure out that it is only a problem with the body on. And pushed down fully onto the chassis. And yes I had “sort of, maybe?” seen this before. So I spent a lot of time under magnification bending and polishing the copper pickup rails that transfer power from the trucks to the frame, and I realized that the ends were bending up high enough to touch the plastic body. I bent them down a bit at the ends, beyond where the truck pickup points touch them, and the loco is running fine. The stuttering and blinking lights are gone
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Post by husafreak on Jun 11, 2021 15:28:09 GMT -5
I'm resurrecting this thread as in the 14 months since I last posted my two TCS AZL4 equipped locos (AZL ES44AC ) have never run well. Typically starting off with a lot of stuttering and blinking lights then after warming up they run just OK for a while and then start acting up again. But I have to run them fast or they stall out. In a consist they are herky jerky and nothing I ever did made them run the same speed. My god I have had them apart sooo many times, not to mention track cleaning exercises! Meanwhile my Digitrax equipped MTL SD40-2 has been running like a champ this whole time. On the same track obviously. Smooth and powerful at any speed I like. So I put the stock DC boards back into my AZL locos and they are running beautifully again. I decided I will never figure it out. So I ordered a couple of Digitrax boards (DZ123ZO) for my AZL locos and I'll report back once they are installed and tested. Perhaps those AZL4 boards will work well in other locos? I have 3 of those boards now and none of them worked well in the ES44AC's. Fingers crossed!
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