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Post by dave on Feb 23, 2018 9:54:31 GMT -5
Good morning,
In planning my small layout, I would like to have real running water. I have one of Franklin Mint/Marklin Norman Rockwell layout they made over 25 years ago and it has running water. Those layouts are made of resin. My layout will be based on 2" pink foam. I have seen some pictures of your layouts here with the simulated water and they are fantastic. I would like to know what methods are being used to simualute water on pink foam and opinions as to whether those materials used are waterproof. I know the foam is not waterproof. All opinions are welcome.
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Feb 23, 2018 11:02:13 GMT -5
Hi Dave, You are going to get 100 different opinions!  Personally, I would stay away from any running water (or any liquid) on train layouts. |
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Post by dave on Feb 23, 2018 11:17:03 GMT -5
Hans...I understand where you are coming from, but that running water on my Norman Rockwell layout generated so much interest at the tiny show that I had it. I think attendance was like 800 people and I bet more than half of those were standing there commenting on that 'real water'. My layout trains will be run from a battery powered Rokuhan controller.
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Post by markm on Feb 23, 2018 12:01:19 GMT -5
Dave,
I'm afraid I have to agree with Hans. Long, long time ago I tried to build an S scale waterfall and stream. Water doesn't scale. It ran down the stream bed like coffee down the side of a cup. The humidity it generated promoted mold and metal oxidation and eventually softened the scenery glue (white glue).
That said, I built it like a pleasure boat of the era: marine plywood covered with fiberglass and resin, painted with marine paint, natural rock (gravel) in the stream bed and several inches beyond.
Mark
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Post by dave on Feb 23, 2018 12:27:23 GMT -5
Those are excellent points, Mark. I had not thought of that.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 23, 2018 13:12:05 GMT -5
Real water in a model railroad? It will never work.  |
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Post by neverland on Feb 23, 2018 13:16:19 GMT -5
I love Sven's faux water on his Chesapeake layout but it wasn't quite clear to me, reading both the forum and his Ztrack article exacting how he achieved it. Sounded like graduated layers of paint but some sort of varnish that gave off some noxious fumes & required good ventilation. Not ideal.
Have you played around with Woodland Scenics Deep Water pour series?
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Feb 23, 2018 14:26:00 GMT -5
I would support looking into the Woodland Scenics stuff. Also, some of the MR books have great articles on how to build water features.
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Post by notanothercamera on Feb 24, 2018 13:18:36 GMT -5
I use good old Mod Podge. The ultra gloss type. I paint my river bed to suit and then dapple on multiple layers of the mod podge with a brush to replicate flowing water. On a layout I'm building now, I'll use this method. Also looking at Woodland Scenics real water effects around rocks and such to create the illusion of moving water. I also thought about making a real river with moving water, but trashed that idea for the above member stated reasons.
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Post by tjdreams on Feb 24, 2018 17:17:36 GMT -5
I use good old Mod Podge. The ultra gloss type. I paint my river bed to suit and then dapple on multiple layers of the mod podge with a brush to replicate flowing water. On a layout I'm building now, I'll use this method. Also looking at Woodland Scenics real water effects around rocks and such to create the illusion of moving water. I also thought about making a real river with moving water, but trashed that idea for the above member stated reasons. Are you using matte or gloss Mod Podge? Looks like he is using the ultra gloss type. |
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Post by neverland on Feb 24, 2018 21:26:40 GMT -5
Are you using matte or gloss Mod Podge? Looks like he is using the ultra gloss type. Duh... Thanks. ☺️ |
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Post by notanothercamera on Feb 25, 2018 11:27:56 GMT -5
Correct! It is the ultra gloss. First N scale layout I built I used the gloss type. It was okay, but I find the ultra variety just looks better....at least to my mind. Usually I'll put anywhere from 4 to 5 coats on. It is a bit time consuming, but the results are worth it.
Here's a tip if you ever want to do a frozen pond or lake. After you paint it to suit and before you begin applying the mod podge, cut a piece of wax paper that will match the outline of your body of water. Glue it down on your layout and let it dry completely. Then begin the layers of ultra gloss. The wax paper produces the most realistic reproduction of a frozen pond.....it makes it appear that there are pockets of air trapped beneath the ice.
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Post by neverland on Feb 25, 2018 13:12:13 GMT -5
Correct! It is the ultra gloss. First N scale layout I built I used the gloss type. It was okay, but I find the ultra variety just looks better....at least to my mind. Usually I'll put anywhere from 4 to 5 coats on. It is a bit time consuming, but the results are worth it. Here's a tip if you ever want to do a frozen pond or lake. After you paint it to suit and before you begin applying the mod podge, cut a piece of wax paper that will match the outline of your body of water. Glue it down on your layout and let it dry completely. Then begin the layers of ultra gloss. The wax paper produces the most realistic reproduction of a frozen pond.....it makes it appear that there are pockets of air trapped beneath the ice. Thanks for that tip-- any chance it will yellow over time? Because it sounds really cool! --Deb |
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Post by notanothercamera on Mar 4, 2018 12:57:09 GMT -5
Well, the two layouts I did where I used this technique have not yellowed in over a year or so.
Also as an additional note, I'm now using Mod Podge Super Gloss Brilliant. Could not find the ultra last time. So far I like this stuff! It seems to be a little thicker consistency, so I've only applied three coats to my current project. We'll see how it turns out.
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Post by BAZman on Mar 4, 2018 14:24:21 GMT -5
Running water is out of scale, being over viscous in our scale. Flowing water is a simple to create illusion an you can see many images or how-to's on YouTube. Sven-Martin Holt (Hans's neighbor) had my first eye catching river 15 years ago. Päl in the Zmod group had a Tourist boat with water and wakes that were eye tearing. The recent Ztrack magazine had a shot of the water mill on a module. Hans has likely seen it at Altenbeken (Germany, this year April 14-15). Bob Mitchell, a Ztrack magazine contributor also has some great water scenes.
All of 'water' products are Polymers (in chemistry). Many are 2-part activated, others that are water based, well, the water evaporates. You can use 'floor wax' but these tend to yellow over time. The big name is Envirotex. This 2 part solution has bad-for-you reaction byproducts and notoriously does not dry quickly (days plus) nor entirely (making it tacky to ever kind of dust, scenery or finger prints. These types are slow curing and viscous (easily flowing) and find EVERY hole you *thought* you sealed and worst --> will suck up into surrounding surfaces !!! After it dries, it will be much lower than you poured or brushed on.
Mod Podge (the Hippie looking logo) dries tack free (takes days though), just like white glue does and does NOT creep up into scenery.
I prefer non-gloss. I'll tell you why: You never see still water. Fingerprints, dusts etc. And since it is an ill
You can still see all of the color illusion of depth (darker colors for deep, brown/grays towards waters edge) and the thicker Matte version can be stippled (poke a brush in it as it dries) to create wind-whip, turbulence. Waves are made from the glues (do not use Silicone glues as the 'water' won't stick to it), plaster, wall hole filler or, layered plastic sheets (the edge creates the wave). Adding a near-white paint creates foam (don't paint over, put it in the 'water'.
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Personally, I would stay away from any running water (or any liquid) on train layouts. 
