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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 23:52:29 GMT -5
Hello ... I try to perform automatic position detection for my hoppers (Full Throttle 33'), so they can stop in the right position at the gravel plant. 1) IR sensors can be "saturated" by daylight ; I measured the resistance of such a sensor outdoors, and found 2KOhm ... even with no direct sunlight. 2) Then I tried to put a neodyme magnet into a car, to use a reed switch. Let it run over a Rokuhan turnout, and You will understand the problem ... . 3) Now another solution I am thinking of is to "graphite" the wheels of one truck with spray for electronics (like for block systems), and use a 25mm detection section. Who used graphite spray on those wheels ? They have an insulating hub on one side only. Because it's rather difficult to remove the paint in case of problem, my question : did You "graphite" the whole surface of the hub, or only draw one thin line between the axle and the external conductive part of the wheel ? I will use a homebrew "voltage divider", detecting 20 to 30K will be no problem. 4) Or simply use a series of insulated sections ? If I power them "in sequence", the locomotive will move each time one section. Two 25mm Rokuhan sections plus the insulator make a length of 51.5mm, the "effective" length of the hoppers is 53.5mm (measured from the front of one hopper to the front of the next one), for a train with six cars this would make a position error of 1cm between the first and the last car (in fact, not a serious matter). 5) Or has anyone another idea ? Thanks for any answer ...
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Post by Rob Albritton on Jun 18, 2017 3:32:51 GMT -5
Hello ... I try to perform automatic position detection for my hoppers (Full Throttle 33'), so they can stop in the right position at the gravel plant. 1) IR sensors can be "saturated" by daylight ; I measured the resistance of such a sensor outdoors, and found 2KOhm ... even with no direct sunlight. 2) Then I tried to put a neodyme magnet into a car, to use a reed switch. Let it run over a Rokuhan turnout, and You will understand the problem ... . 3) Now another solution I am thinking of is to "graphite" the wheels of one truck with spray for electronics (like for block systems), and use a 25mm detection section. Who used graphite spray on those wheels ? They have an insulating hub on one side only. Because it's rather difficult to remove the paint in case of problem, my question : did You "graphite" the whole surface of the hub, or only draw one thin line between the axle and the external conductive part of the wheel ? I will use a homebrew "voltage divider", detecting 20 to 30K will be no problem. 4) Or simply use a series of insulated sections ? If I power them "in sequence", the locomotive will move each time one section. Two 25mm Rokuhan sections plus the insulator make a length of 51.5mm, the "effective" length of the hoppers is 53.5mm (measured from the front of one hopper to the front of the next one), for a train with six cars this would make a position error of 1cm between the first and the last car (in fact, not a serious matter). 5) Or has anyone another idea ? Thanks for any answer ... I use solution #3 for my DCC layout. Over 300 blocks of computer control that works perfectly. Spray the paint into a bottle and then brush it on for better control. If you spray too much, some alcohol will thin it down and increase the resistance.
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Post by markm on Jun 18, 2017 12:37:56 GMT -5
As I understand the question, at one specific location on the layout you want to move up to 6 cars realistically through a transfer station. I would vote for #4 as being the simplest to construct. If you look into cutting the rails at appropriate locations you could get exact placement of up to 8 cars, although the real issue would be the effective length of the power pickup on the locomotive, which for the GP38 is 52 feet (about 72mm ?). Sequencing power along the small sections would not be difficult. My next choice would be an optical solution. The IR sensor you mention the resistance for sounds like a CdS photocell. These are really only good for sensing changes gross changes in light. You'd be better off using an IR emitter and a phototransistor sensor. Use separate devices projecting across the tracks or a reflective sensor. The blocking sensors would require more software control to avoid false triggers due to hardware on the car (ladders, brakes wheels and such). My choice would be a reflective sensor such as: www.jameco.com/z/OPB704WZ-Optek-Technology-Photointerrupter-Reflective-Phototransistor-4-Pin_1872759.htmlThe performance and accuracy can be enhanced using a stripe of IR reflective paint or tape on the bottom of the car. A disclaimer in that I used to work with such sensors in manufacturing automation, so I'm very comfortable with them. To me the resistive wheel sets are best for detecting a block occupancy. This is what I'm doing on my layout. To determine precise location you need some very small, precisely defined track blocks on the order of 25mm. Then there is the rolling stock issues. One truck or two with resistive wheels: one requires all cars to have a defined "front", two trucks and you have an issue of detecting one car, or two halves. I haven't done anything quite like you describes, but these are my thought. Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 15:19:34 GMT -5
To Mark : I made the test with a reflective IR detector, LiteOn LTH-209-01 ! I wanted to glue a self adhesive mirror tape under the "smooth" part of my cars. I my "electronics lab" ( = kitchen ) the system could distinguish the normal bottom and the mirror tape ... because there was no sunlight on the detector (window to north ... and closed, I made the tests at night). Unfortunately my "hobby railroad room" has a window full to south ... For the resistive solution, the system would detect the moment when the (first pair of wheels of the) rear truck of a car comes to the detection section, stop the loco, wait 10 (or15) seconds to simulate the loading time, start the loco, wait until the "graphited" truck has left the detection (there will be a capacitor as a time constant to avoid "flicker" ), and then wait for the next one ... With a length of 25mm (the shortest part by Rokuhan), never two REAR trucks can be detected simultaneously (the trick is that front trucks would NOT be graphited). But You are right : #4 is the simplest (and most reliable) system, sections could be built directly with two 25mm tracks and an insulator, (as I wrote, the approximate lenth of a car) and the management could even be done with a simple shift register and a clock oscillator (or a simple Atmel Tiny), and a handfull of components. For the power pickup there would be no problem, the loco would take its power through his rear truck, with the front truck on the next section : I think GP's take BOTH polarities on each truck, or not ? For this case I should make my "electric cuttings" in the correct rail ...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 2:13:08 GMT -5
I tried the solution with graphite paint on wheels at one truck (33' hoppers by FT) ; I got about 10KOhms, but unfortunately it seems that the cars are too light to ensure a good contact, and above all some VERY SHORT successive insulated sections (about 10mm) would be necessary, which is tedious with Rokuhan tracks. And meanwhile I read the topic about "gunked wheels".
So I tested again the solution with magnets and reed switches (two under the tracks, for debouncing) ; it works fine, there is only the problem with the turnouts : when the train runs over them it performs some "push-pull" movements, and this leads to an ugly "accordion-like" effect, due to the springs in the couplers.
Has anybody another solution ? Rigid coupling bars perhaps (the cars will always be run in the same configuration) ? Or what else ? Meanwhile I exclude the solution with several insulated sections, for various reasons.
Thanks for any additional suggestion ...
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 9, 2017 2:44:47 GMT -5
Thanks for any additional suggestion ... Switch to DCC and make it easy and reliable?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 4:11:06 GMT -5
Switch to DCC and make it easy and reliable? Except for the Rokuhan contact "springs" ... And I think this does not solve the necessity for insulated sections !
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Post by markm on Aug 9, 2017 10:01:27 GMT -5
Alberich, About the only other conventional solution I can think of is the Märklin 8589 track piece. The switch makes contact (forward or reverse) when the rolling stock axle crosses it. Although I've heard it mentioned, I don't believe Rokuhan is producing an equivalent track section.
Some less than conventional thoughts: RFID tags in the cars, Lidar or ultrasonic range detection for occupancy, photo image recognition of occupancy. Of course all of these would be a major sideline of the model railroading.
Mark
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 10:30:49 GMT -5
Unfortunately there are 2 issues with the Märklin switch : first many people say it causes derailments, second it can not distinguish between the 4 axles of a hopper ! I think RFID can IDENTIFY a car, but not perform a position detection ; I was thinking of another solution : the old grid-dip principle, detecting a LC circuit with an oscillator, principle used in anti-theft systems in stores ... The problem with RF frequencies is that they could make interference with radio receivers in the neighborhood if there is too much power, but I think it could PERHAPS be an intersting way to explore ... But 4 are needed (2 tracks, 2 per track for debouncing), so I don't know if it is really useable !
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Post by theflyingrhodesian on Aug 9, 2017 12:41:20 GMT -5
Wrap the IR sensor in a short piece of heat shrink tube. This narrows the 'field of view' of the sensor and makes it much more sensitive to the wagon immediately above it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 13:01:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately the IR Led and the photodiode are in the same case for a conventional reflection detector ; and so I should need to put the whole detector unit in a kind of rectangular "pit" under the track (painted black inside, and hoping it won't reflect IR, which is not certain) ... and hope that with the increased distance it should still work ; perhaps it is an idea worth to be tested, the depth of the pit would be given by the angle of possible incoming (sun)light. And then I wanted all the way to use a modulated light beam. Another problem is that I will need to adjust the sensitivity of the detector, to distinguish between the simple dark bottom of the car (resistance tested : about 90KOhm) and a short piece of reflective foil ("produces" about 10KOhm at the detector, so it should be possible). This goes slowly but surely towards a "gaseous plant" ... especially because 4 detectors will be needed (2 tracks, and 2 detectors per track for "debouncing"). I think, I will finally and simply control the movements for this train ... BY HAND !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 0:20:29 GMT -5
Meanwhile I found a solution for the 4 detectors, it would be an analog selector (CD4051/4052), because I am, at any moment, waiting for only one "triggering". On a German forum, I found this, it proves that other modellers have the same problem, and it seems they solved it ; and the German modeller "colleagues" noticed that, while I am waiting for trigger, the detectors will be protected by the "shadow" of the cars, and that I could protect if necessary the detectors against "lateral" incoming light by some "accessories". So I will nevertheless go on with my tets !
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