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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 4:18:20 GMT -5
Hello everybody.
I designed a layout and I am planning to build it most with conventional (not Flex) Rokuhan tracks. There would be two sections of about 7m (no blocks) and 3 tunnels. The track will be screwed on plywood (I saw that zscalehobo sells such screws, so I think I am not alone with this idea). What's about the reliability of the joiners (I think it's impossible to solder them all, and there is the problem with dilatation) and additional feeders ? What should be the maximum distance between them ? I DON'T wanna use DCC ! In a former topic somebody thought they are unnecessary, because of the low power consumption of z-locos ...
Rokuhan makes a part to insulate both rails. But if I want only to cut one rail for a stop section in a track in station ? Joiners by Märklin don't work fine. So :
1) Cut the Rokuhan part into 2 pieces ? But I fear that would give a non-symmetrical junction ... Or use it and "bridge" one rail ?
2) I read about using rail joiners for N by Peco. Will the gap in the second rail not be too large ? Or will I have to file the insulated rail ?
3) "Dremel" a section of Rokuhan-track in the middle of the part (kamikaze ... ) ?
4) Or what else ?
Thanks for any answer ...
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Post by markm on Mar 13, 2017 10:19:20 GMT -5
Well let's see what I can do for answers. So far I've found the Rokuhan joiners to be very reliable. As for soldering the joiners to the rails, I am not an advocate. I had problems with expansion and contraction on my first layout, mounted on plywood. I like to use a fine wire bridging the adjacent rails, it's less heat than soldering the joiners. For power feeds, I suggest 500-600mm spacing. I've found that's about the distance that speed changes become noticeable. Yes you can "dremel" both the track and the road bed, but I'd suggest something a bit more controlled like a hand saw. If you want to cut the track it gets a bit tricky. If you look at the underside of the track, the rails are secured to the road bed by one set of pins (at the arrows in the image). That side of the track holds firm but the rail on the side without them will slide in the rail spikes. If you cut the rail you should consider filling the gap with an insulator.  For creating a gap, my thought would be to trim the rail at the section end with a file or rail cutter and skip the rail joiner. Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 11:04:20 GMT -5
Thank You Markm, but :
1) What can happen if I don't solder the "bridging " wire ? Can the rails lose contact at the joiners ? They seem to sit rather "firmly". My fear is that the visible plastic parts could get damaged if I "tremble", or that I get a "thick piece of solder", and have to file it away ...
2) About the speed change, I saw three video demonstrations on Youtube :
and I didn't notice anything ; I was thinking about a feeder soldered to the joiners every 1m ....
Or would it be better to solder a pair of wires on the underside of the track, like suggested in the second video, I don't know if You can understand German ; at 1:50 he says that he built a connection track himself, that the tracks had soldering points, he was showing the "pins" ; I think he used a very thin "tip" for his soldering iron ... ; I tested on two "sacrificed" standard tracks : DON'T TRY IT ! The parts holding the rail melt faster than the solder "fixes" to the pins and the solder does not "hold" very well, and one can see a variation in colour even of the rails (it seems that the pins were added, made of another metal than the rails) ... But I succeeded in connecting the wires in the "standard" square-shaped holes, without any visible deformation or variation in colour. It goes very quickly, with the tracks not yet installed (I will use about 150 sections, plus the turnouts, located only in visible parts and where I will not solder). Then it should be possible to connect the wires together on a "bus" under the plywood (this would solve the problems of the feeders too) ? Or perhaps every fifth or sixth section of track ... Or is this "modus operandi" even more risky ? Unfortunately all these considerations made me think that Z is much less reliable than I thought at the beginning ; or are we searching for the 150% safety in use ? Because on the video I can't see any other connections or trouble in running !
Maybe the optimum solution would be a compromise : a feeder to every section of track in tunnels, where servicing (in case of problems with joiners) is more difficult, and only every 5 to 6 sections in easily accessible locations ?
The idea of filing the track at the end of a section is good, but if I "trim the rail at the end and skip the joiner", I fear that there could be problems in curves, like with non soldered flex tracks ; I need a cut when the train comes near a station to automatically start the "slow down", and unfortunately this is in a curve : detection of the loco and then progressive modification of the PWM by the microcontroller ; stop via a "stop section" where I can switch the power off.
PS : the layout will be built on a wooden frame covered with a 10 mm plywood plate, and then vertical supports made of 10mm plywood will hold the treads made of 3mm plywood with a support every 20cm. 1,5% slope gives a height difference of 3 mm between successive supports. On these treads the tracks will be fixed with screws. My former layout was built this way and I had never any problem with the infrastructure. And this new layout will stay at his place, supported by 6 adjustable "legs", and will never be taken to an exhibition : I think this can be a source for reliability problems, too ! The mountains will be made with several layers of "roofmate" on a base support (over the tunnels) made of plywood.
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Post by dazed on Mar 14, 2017 15:13:13 GMT -5
I basically solder to the square holes, although I remove additional plastic on each side *carefully* with a dremel. I found I couldn't reliably solder wire to the rail just using that small square hole. You may be better at it than me and that's fine. Just make sure you test your solder connections before gluing the track down.
My guideline for sectional track is to never get more than two track joints away from a piece of track with a feeder. In other words, there can be 4 pieces of track without feeders in between pieces that have feeders. It's not uncommon for me to put feeders more often though.
I also don't generally attach feeders to Rokuhan turnouts so tracks immediately adjacent the turnout must all have feeders regardless of the above.
If you want to solder joiners and are capable of doing it without melting trackbed/ties/spikes then I'd say go for it....EXCEPT, I would not solder any joiners on turnouts. That serves two main purposes...easier to replace a turnout if the motor burns out, and it gives you that some little bit of play that helps keep from having kinks develop in the track. Personally I would only solder joiners on curves, and the transitions from curves to straight and leave the rest, but I'm not even planning on doing that unless the need arises.
I personally don't like using screws, but if you're comfortable with that then by all means go for it. Not a decision worth stressing over.
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Post by dawdawes on Mar 14, 2017 15:20:55 GMT -5
A quick answer My new exhibition layout Lincoln has been laid with Rokuhan and I find the rail joiners very good. Also the sections for cab control I use the isolating fishplates, they keep everything aligned.I also use micro screws as they hold my track better when transporting it . www.dawdawes.com |
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Post by zscalehobo on Mar 14, 2017 16:18:45 GMT -5
Isolate with Atlas 2091 plastic joiners. The A013 Rokuhan isolator cannot be cut to use only 1 side as it will be grossly mis-aligned. The 2091's can be used on one side just fine and will not lead to much uneven separation. You can also use the Atlas 2092 joiners that include soldered wires. I have some photos on my page: zscalehobo.com/misc/atlas_2092.html |
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Post by zscalehobo on Mar 14, 2017 16:40:42 GMT -5
Since the Rokuhan has a plastic joiner immediately under the metal joiner, how can you use the metal joiner with a wire? If you are giving up the plastic joiner, I'm not sure I agree that this is a good solution, part of the "quality" of Rokuhan is the very solid and well aligned connection of tracks. Of course this is my opinion, but based on experience, we did put a lot of track down on the BFY !! Greg Solid points and I respect your experience. You remove the plastic joiner and then use track screws in those sections around the joint. Problem solved. I have done this on several layouts with zero reported issues. So, I have some experience too. No BFY experience, but hey. It is something, man!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 17:09:49 GMT -5
To dazed : I soldered in the "small square holes" with the smallest tip and a regulated soldering iron, made by Solomon (?) and sold by Velleman (in Europe), about 16 years old (not even a ceramic heater). It has a digital display for temperature regulation, I use 260~270 degrees (Celsius ! ), electronic solder with flux, diameter 0.5mm, NOT RoHS ! It seems obvious, but first I put some solder on the track part, then on the bare end of the wire, and then I introduce the cable into the solder on the track, melted again ; and after a few seconds, when I draw to the cable, it holds like concrete ... It takes less than 2 minutes per section, so I think I will solder feeders to all my parts (except to turnouts) and then use a bus-system under the base plate : this avoids trouble ... especially in tunnels (Murphy's law ! ) To dawdawes : which "micro-screws" do You use ? Those sold by zscalehobo (I found the same at my local dealer, diameter 1,4mm, exactly the hole in the cylindric part under the roadbed) ? I think they are good although the "head" is a little bit "thick" (more than the space between two sleepers, I saw the Rokuhan-video), but with a little touch of grey paint ... ; all the way I will use only Philips screws, I had too much anger in the past with broken screws with a "slot". Or are nails (diameter 0,7mm, Amati, Italy) better ? The head is smaller and less visible (especially with paint, again) but I think they will not "hold" so good in my 3mm plywood treads ... To Greg Elmassian : I hope Your "stock" of freight cars is managed by a computer data base ...  Meanwhile I found Your home page, I saw that You recommend only 6v for the turnouts, on other sites I saw 10v. Where is the truth ? I found that my test turnout worked fine with a capacitor of 680 (a little bit "weak") to 1000uF, charged with a 9v battery. Probably I will use about 8 volt (there is a loss of 0.6v in the diodes, all the way, and perhaps I will put some additional diodes or a Zener in series to charge the capacitors), and capacitors of 820uF (if they are still appropriate with 8v) for a single turnout and 1500 uF for two in parallel. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 1:24:36 GMT -5
To Greg Almassian : I tried 6v and a 1000uF capacitor : it can switch one turnout, 680uF seems not to be enough (I will test with 2 turnouts in parallel, probably I shall use 1800 or 2200 uF ... when I will have access to a second turnout ! ) So I could use a transformer, 6v nominal (the peak output is more), with one kind of limiter, and a variant of my dual-power scheme, which would only need one source in AC. The advantage is that there is no quiescent current through the coils, the capacitors are alternately charged-discharged. I measured 12 Ohm (Märklin has 24 Ohm) for the coil. Todays my kitchen looks like an electronics lab : Fortunately I live alone ! About joiners : I think the best solution is Yours ; I tried Peco joiners, they are very difficult to put in place and once assembled there is a gap left between the non-isolated rails and the ballast parts, due to the "wall" inside the joiner, so one had to file the rail ... And I tried the screws, if they are painted with the appropriate grey they are almost no more visible at about 1' ... and it remembers me the old "M" tracks by Märklin , HO gauge from the sixties, they were super-reliable ! |
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Meanwhile I found Your home page, I saw that You recommend only 6v for the turnouts, on other sites I saw 10v. Where is the truth ? I found that my test turnout worked fine with a capacitor of 680 (a little bit "weak") to 1000uF, charged with a 9v battery. Probably I will use about 8 volt (there is a loss of 0.6v in the diodes, all the way, and perhaps I will put some additional diodes or a Zener in series to charge the capacitors), and capacitors of 820uF (if they are still appropriate with 8v) for a single turnout and 1500 uF for two in parallel.