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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 20, 2016 5:03:35 GMT -5
I am starting up a griping/begging/wanting thread here. And this deals with Z stuff other than engines, rolling stock and even track. In the past few years, we have gotten a bunch of nice things that roll, that are pretty detailed. But when it comes down to say, buildings, there are a lot of gaps that need to be filled. There have been spurts here and there of great stuff, and not so great stuff. I wish I could have some nice buildings, in true scale proportions in Z. Most buildings in N,HO,O,S, and G are not quite right, but are made the way they are because they fit better, or are "cute" looking. We have the advantage of having more space in our layouts and thus more realistic buildings. The ones that would take exception to this would be the ones with briefcase and coffee table layouts, or those that only allow for 6 inch wide modules. or those that fill up every available space with track.
Simple brick buildings that are found in every town and city, that were built from the 1880s to the 1950s, and can still be found standing today. Like or friends who model in other scales have. But better.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Feb 20, 2016 12:02:22 GMT -5
I share your thoughts on this matter, however, having said that, there are actually a few manufacturers of Z scale buildings in existence today, and as someone who has purchased a number of these I find that they are as close to prototypical as one can get. It depends I guess on your preference, ready made or kit form. I have purchased both, and depending on who you get them from, they can be very easy to put together or difficult and I'm referring to the kits. There are ready made buildings that are manufactured from resin, or plastic and some of the plastic ones simulate brick which is what you are looking for. We are all aware of the kits put out by Marklin, but these are designed for the European market but they do have a few that can be adapted to fit North American culture and design. There are plastic kits and ready made models coming out of Japan and China which are mainly geared to the Asian market, but again, can be adapted to North America. Outland Models which is fairly new on the scene, makes a pretty good bunch of ready made buildings of different types and some are stackable with extra floors if you want tall buildings. If you go on Ebay, you'll find a good selection of buildings from solid resin which can't have lighting in them, to plastic lightable models. Many are reasonably priced as well. Also check out Z Scale Monster and look under GC Laser, and a few other manufactures he has listed there. You'll find an excellent assortment of buildings from farms, to rail yard buildings and pretty much everything in between. Of course these are all laser cut kits. Good hunting.
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 20, 2016 13:02:41 GMT -5
I have sampled a lot that were out there. Some come close, and some can be kitbashed, but others not so much. It is not that they are not tall enough, but most are not wide or deep enough. I know about selective compression, but do we need it all the time in this scale? Granted nobody can put a whole scale mile of track up and all the stuff that is along the track, but, I would like some buildings that are a bit more proportioned than the ones that are out there. I remember a while back, someone talking about a barn kit that was actually made to scale, from a real one, and people had complained how it looked to big. I get it, manufacturers have to find a happy middle to sell, and most people do not have a layout to put big buildings on.
On another note, it is nice that there are a few more accessories now for Z that only the big scales used to have. The trackside cabinets and relay boxes that Century makes are pretty cool, and something I was wishing for for a long long time. To me, that is the kind of stuff that makes a model railroad. I would love to see more stuff like this made.
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Post by smr on Feb 20, 2016 13:32:03 GMT -5
I have sampled a lot that were out there. Some come close, and some can be kitbashed, but others not so much. It is not that they are not tall enough, but most are not wide or deep enough. I know about selective compression, but do we need it all the time in this scale? Granted nobody can put a whole scale mile of track up and all the stuff that is along the track, but, I would like some buildings that are a bit more proportioned than the ones that are out there. I remember a while back, someone talking about a barn kit that was actually made to scale, from a real one, and people had complained how it looked to big. I get it, manufacturers have to find a happy middle to sell, and most people do not have a layout to put big buildings on. On another note, it is nice that there are a few more accessories now for Z that only the big scales used to have. The trackside cabinets and relay boxes that Century makes are pretty cool, and something I was wishing for for a long long time. To me, that is the kind of stuff that makes a model railroad. I would love to see more stuff like this made. For me it sounds you have a clear understanding what kind of buildings you would like to have. Did you know that Archistories and Lüttke offer tailor-made buildings according to your plans/drawings. In addition, we have several hobby-business Z-enthusiasts that love to work with you on your projects. Old fashioned manufacturers play their own game, but they move in the "right" direction as well. But they are not reluctant to move because they don`t want to but because a lot of model railroaders are still happy with their 20 - 30 year old plastic kits. We talk to the manufacturers and I can tell you they highly appreciate our feed-back !!! They want to serve their customers well, but sometimes you have to help them understand how! Best, Sven  Here as an example the project "Windmill": azlforum.com/thread/497/deal-island-chesapeake-bay-220?page=18PS: If you search for something beside the tracks, please ask - here are people with decades of experience in Z, who love to share their know-how. |
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Post by boxcarwilly on Feb 20, 2016 13:53:58 GMT -5
Burlington:
If I understand your second post, you are looking for buildings that when completed, have a rather large footprint in width and depth. There are a few of these in existence now. I guess it all comes down to what you want to model. For example, if you are going to model a shopping mall or an industrial park, or something similar, then you are correct in your statement that there isn't anything currently on the market in kit, or ready made form that can give you that. If on the other hand you are going to model a regular, everyday down town street, then there are lots of buildings that would suite your needs and have varying footprints.
As an example, on my layout I have a farm with a barn that takes up a 2.5" x 3.5" footprint and a house that is only 1.75" x 2". Also a garage and an outhouse. Across the road from there is a boy scout camp with a bunk house, 3 log cabins, a cook house, 3 outhouses and several tents of various sizes. On another part I have an MOW yard with 4 small buildings, a large one stall engine house, and further from that I have a tiny hunters cabin and outhouse situated in the woods. Eventually, I will have a full sized marshalling yard, and a town to support it but because of what I'm modelling, none of the buildings will take up a great deal of space individually, but put them all together and you're looking at probably a full 2 x 4 ft. module and perhaps more. This is my preference and someone else will want something different with bigger buildings. That's cool as it all comes back to what you want to accomplish. Like the saying goes, "If you can dream it, you can build it."
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 20, 2016 14:05:57 GMT -5
Here is an example of some buildings in proper proportions. VERY typical of what was found all over the Midwest as well as the rest of the country, that were built in booming railroad towns at the beginning of the 20th Century. I know I can squish them down to Z scale and cut them out, but, a nice little Z Plasticville would be nice. One that is not just as good as the HO guys have, but better. Our advantage is, we can make city blocks. We can have factories, and schools, and warehouses.https://www.illinois.gov/ihpa/Preserve/Pages/construct_mainstreet.aspx#BYOM
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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 20, 2016 14:22:32 GMT -5
I think this is where "cottage" industries can really make an impact going forward.
I'm working on an expansion of my Gotthard layout. I've been able to re-create quite a few of the actual structures along the line with an interesting combination of technology:
1) Google Street view gives me multiple angles on the buildings I want to reproduce.
2) Rhino 3d is an excellent, affordable, professional CAD system (I think about $500)
3) Formlabs makes a wonderful SLA 3d Printer (This is the type that uses a laser and a vat of photo resin) that has excellent resolution, details, and strength. This will set you back about $3,000
Now the only problem with this is cost: the resin for the printer is about $100 per liter. not cheap. but it can give you unlimited Z scale items based only on your imagination.
And if you dont want to spend all day designing in CAD, lots of folks on TurboSquid have posted models for sale. Pretty easy to scale to Z
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 20, 2016 14:23:19 GMT -5
Oh and I do appreciate all the feedback and discussions and ideas. I know I can find someone with a laser or even have someone make me some custom buildings, perhaps using Shapeways. I am hoping something could be in a series and others will be able to have them too.
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 20, 2016 14:35:52 GMT -5
Oh Google street view. I tried using it to measure out this grocery store that is pretty much just a brick block back home, and using some brick sheets that I have and Lego frame. Measurements seem a bit off and it seems way too big. I am trying to talk someone back home into going out with a tape measure and get me the true measurements. I think others had some problems with measurements, however you can get a great sense of proportion with those old brick buildings using it.
Oh I agree with the cottage industry thing. I think there is a niche for good quality buildings to match the good quality trains that are out there.
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Post by markm on Feb 20, 2016 20:52:46 GMT -5
I think this is where "cottage" industries can really make an impact going forward. Isn't model railroading a cottage industry by definition? Or can we book tours of AZL's worldwide headquarters?  The structure market that's not being served are the post-1950 market: pre-stressed concrete, prefab and cast-in- place tilt-ups:  They're all over the place as office buildings, light industrial and strip malls. They can be built in scale as they were in 1:1. You only need a couple of panel types: front door, back door, wall, loading dock.  The consumer buys the panels they need to construct the appropriate size and shape building or façade. One should be able to manufacture in large quantities to keep cost down.  The only question is there a market? As for the original question, I'd like to see more electrical accessories: working crossing flashers and gates, semaphores, wig-wags, lighted cell/radio towers, lighted U.S. passenger cars (like Rokuhan), FRED equipped cars, tail lights and ditch lights. Mark |
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 21, 2016 3:09:05 GMT -5
Oh lots of people doing post 50s railroading. So I would not be against strip malls and big grocery stores and such. Where I grew up those things sprung up along old industrial areas so lots of places for tracks. (Mr Vernon Illinois had built the strip mall with the Krogers and Monkey Wards, right on the old Mt Vernon Car Companies yard. I was fascinated that a big part of the parking lot was concrete with the rails still embedded.) Key to this is, the ugly back end of these things (but the most interesting) with the loading docks and trucks should on the side facing the tracks. Yes those big concrete buildings with brick fronts and the big post atomic Doo-Wop designs would be pretty cool.
Everyone in Europe likes to do those big long desert modules. Nice long motel with office and diner would be pretty cool sitting on the other side of the highway from the RR tracks. A few scrubby palm trees and a couple dime store dinosaurs painted concrete and you would have quite the tourist attraction.
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Post by dazed on Feb 21, 2016 9:13:37 GMT -5
As for the original question, I'd like to see more electrical accessories: working crossing flashers and gates, semaphores, wig-wags, lighted cell/radio towers, lighted U.S. passenger cars (like Rokuhan), FRED equipped cars, tail lights and ditch lights. This. I do think the o.p. is right about the buildings that have been around for 70 years that would appeal to the broadest market. If I was modeling anything but a pure industrial park scene that would be absolutely something that I'd want. I also believe that Shapeways (i.e. 3D printing) will solve a lot of these issues particularly in Z. You can argue that it's still a generation or two away so it may be a couple of years but I think with, say, 5 years you'll have a vast catalog of quality structures to pick from. And, maybe even companies that can decorate those in a manner as seamlessly as ordering the item from Shapeways. In closing, I'll say that we shouldn't dismiss the "rolling models" from the equation either. Those (and to an almost equal extent would be the lighting and ROW items listed above) are really the lifeblood of model railroading, and even as recently as a year or two ago there were some significant pieces of the puzzle missing that have now arrived, and there are still dozens of models--across several key eras--that would be considered almost mandatory to model a given era. And that's just scratching the surface even when you compare to N-scale, and that's a group that feels slighted by the immense variety available in HO. So we're sort of 1/8th of 1/4th from the availability standpoint. (unfortunately, those number also pretty well represent the market share, too....which doesn't help the situation.) |
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Post by tjdreams on Feb 21, 2016 9:16:04 GMT -5
Oh Google street view. I tried using it to measure out this grocery store that is pretty much just a brick block back home, and using some brick sheets that I have and Lego frame. Measurements seem a bit off and it seems way too big. I am trying to talk someone back home into going out with a tape measure and get me the true measurements. I think others had some problems with measurements, however you can get a great sense of proportion with those old brick buildings using it. Oh I agree with the cottage industry thing. I think there is a niche for good quality buildings to match the good quality trains that are out there. One thing to keep in mind when trying to scale down a building is the size of the brick and block used may not be a standard size as we know it today. Today a standard Block is called 8 x 16 and is thought to be 8" x 16" when it is actually 7-5/8 x 15-5/8. Just like lumber what we call a 2 x 4 actually measures 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" and the same goes for Brick. Many older buildings are made of non Standard sized Brick Block and Lumber. Stacking todays block 7-5/8 tall and a 3/8 mortar joint will get you 8" for each layer of block so a wall with 12 layers of block will be 96" tall, But a building made back in the 40's with Block that measured 8" tall with a 3/8 to 1/2" mortar joint, 12 layers of Block would net you a 100-1/2" to 102" tall wall. In short The slightest difference in the actual size of the building materials used could be what is causing the size difference you are coming up with. David |
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Post by atw on Feb 21, 2016 9:38:23 GMT -5
Burlington Interesting questions, though I think you're really opening up a discussion on modelling philosophies more than just simple accessories. Quite obviously there is no modelling scale like Z that offers the potential and the possibility to model a landscape (be it urban or nature) in its full scale dimensions. The question however (and it's one of my favourites) is whether or not that is the actual reason why modellers go for Z. My impression is - probably only a minority. The "problem" of course is that, as you say, even fairly modest facilities of any kind will take up a substantial amount of space if modelled faithfully in 1:220. But even more importantly IMHO might be the fact that most of us have been reading about "selective compression" and "staging" and "forced perspective" from the big guns in the hobby for decades, so most of us are probably not truly conditioned to thinking that way. But even though I am a member of the 6" width module gang (for the simple reason that I get the "more trains" from expanding the lateral dimensions rather than the depth of a scene) I totally agree with you - it would be nice to have more of those almost generic brick buildings, plus those post-1950s too. And if a manufacturer decides to go with your full scale approach that would suit me fine too - I'd just chop it up into two buildings, no harm done. Adrian |
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Feb 21, 2016 14:25:22 GMT -5
Would have loved to offer structures, but the volume is ultra low. As Robert said, there is a huge cottage industry out there. Do not be afraid to kit bash either. I am sure that Shapeways offer small building details for Z scale. Personally I wish that Grandt-Line had a Z scale window selection.
A book that is great to use is MRs "Modeling Structures".
Hope to see more buildings and layouts on our Forum site!
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