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Post by kimjensen1 on Aug 22, 2014 12:10:20 GMT -5
Hello
My name is Kim Jensen, I live in Denmark. I am new to the hobby. I need some help and advice regarding Z scale.
Recently I went to my loacal train shop asking for advice. I was told to stay far away from Z scale and go N scale instead. Some of the arguments were Z scale is not reliable, trains dont run good in Z scale etc, many derailments, you will regret Z scale for the rest of your life etc.
I was very surprised to hear that they apparently has no trust or confidence in Z scale at all. I think it is alway good to get a second opinion which is why I signed up on this forum.
The layout will be in a room that measures 4,00 meters X 2,80 meters. The layout will be in a U-shape in the middle of the room. The layout itself will measure 3,16 meters X 2,00 meters.
Here are my questions:
1. Is it really that difficault for a beginner to get a Z-scale layout working where trains run reliable and stable and with not so many derailments ? 2. Can I run Z scale in DCC with lights and sound ? 3. Who is the best Z scale track supplier ? 4. What are the biggest challenges when running Z scale ?
Thanks in advance for the help.
Kind regards Kim Jensen
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Post by markm on Aug 22, 2014 13:55:03 GMT -5
Kim, Welcome to the forum. To help answer your questions better, I have a couple of questions for you: do you have experience with model railroading in other scales? Are you interested in modeling North American, European or Japanese railroads? 1. I really don't think it's difficult to get started in Z. Starter sets are available. I've been doing Z since the 1980s. To me the biggest issue for newcomers is construction tolerance. A reliably running layout will have track related dimension held to a tolerance of <0.5mm. For operations, judge for yourself: I was at the 2011 NMRA/NTS convention and watched the trains run without problem for hours. 2. Yes you can run Z scale in DCC. There are drop-in decoders for MTL & AZL GPs. Most other locomotives can be DCC equipped, although some require a lot of machining work. Z is a bit small for sound in the locomotive, but there are sound equipped Z boxcars that people do run. 3. For sectional track, Rokuhan offers the largest selection of sections and their turnouts are the most reliable. The track ties reflect European and Japanese standards and some consider it inappropriate for North American track. For flex track, I can recommend both Pecos (UK) and MTL (US) track. 4. For me, the biggest challenge running Z is keeping the layout clean. Dust can gum-up a locomotive quickly and hair can be deadly.
Hope this helps,
Mark
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Post by ztrack on Aug 22, 2014 13:57:09 GMT -5
KIm,
Welcome to Z scale! What you describe is very typical. Many dealers push N over Z since they stock little or no Z. They also have no experience with the scale.
First, reliability. There are no poor running trains in Z scale All have been designed and built to high standards. We have heard more than a few comments from model railroaders who have noted that the Z scale trains run better than the N scale counterpart. Likely the poorest runner is MTL's F7, but that is only because it tends to growl when it runs. It can pull a ton of cars! The new series of locomotives from AZL use traction tires, coreless or can motors that are nearly silent, and feature numerous details.
Yes on DCC. Digitrax offers decoders designed for AZL's standard PCB board used in the GP30, GP38, GP7 and SD70 series of locomotives. They also have a board for MTL's GP35 series of locomotive. The boards do have lights, but not sound. Some Z scalers have found their own solutions to add sounds.
The two biggest track companies are Marklin and Rokuhan. I highly recommend Rokuhan, especially if you are starting out. You won't have operations issues with this track or turnouts. It is designed for operations. Marklin can be a bit more finicky for a beginner, especially the alignment. Rokuhan had the ballasted roadbed which makes connecting the track very easy.
The biggest challenge in my opinion is keeping the track clean. Clean track is key for good operations. I use a soft cloth and Isopropyl alcohol to clean my track. I also use Gaugemaster HF1 electronic track cleaners (not needed if you run DCC).
By the way, I have been running Z since 1985. No regrets here.
Rob
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Post by emaley on Aug 22, 2014 15:00:37 GMT -5
Welcome. I agree with what has been said already. CLEAN track is a must. I suggest a starter set to see what you think. I started with N scale and tried Z for a lark and now I am hooked. The only issue I see is the lack of disposable income for all the cool things you are gonna find that you want. Personally one of my favorite pieces is the AZL RDC. It runs very quietly and has been very reliable. I have used Rokuhan track and controllers and they too are very nice. This forum ia great place for information and everyone here is very helpful. A magnifying visor and or a magnifying lamp are very helpful also. Finally, I don't think Z is any more difficult than N. Sometimes things take a bit of tinkering to get right, but certainly no more so that N scale. Give it a shot. You can get a lot of bang for your buck in a fairly small space.
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Post by kimjensen1 on Aug 22, 2014 15:16:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
Many many years ago I had a Marklin HO layout, that is almost 30 years ago.
The trains in the video run very smoothly I think.
On the 1st of september I will be moving in to a new apartment. One of the main reasons for moving was getting one additional room dedicated to a lay-out. So I will not be starting small, I will build a big lay-out to begin with, that is why it is so important to me to find the right scale. If I dont like the scale for some reason a lot of money will be lost.
I will be running North American trains only.
Rokuhan track sounds really good. Reliable turnouts is something that I have read abount on many different forums, one guy even wrote that not getting his turnouts to work, this was a N scale layout, almost made him quit the hobby. So reliable turn-outs is a must for me, especially as a beginner.
I really like AZLs locomotives, and I dont think they have that much less detail compared to other scales as people say they have. From the people I have spoken too I have a feeling that z scale is beeing made in to some kind of "dont do it" scale, from what they are saying I almost feel like nothing works in this scale and I simply refuse to believe that.
Will AZLs locomotives and running stock run on Rokuhan track ?
I would like to have the track look really realistic, is it possible to ballast the Rokuhan track myself ?
And what about structures and buildings, I have been looking for ready build z scale structures but have not found any, how difficault are these structures to assemble ?
Thanks again for the help.
Kind regards Kim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:52:08 GMT -5
Welcome to Z! There's nothing further I can add that hasn't been covered. I model O scale, N scale and Z. I have every scale available. Z is my favorite and has become my main focus. If you have a nice, level surface you can run many cars with one engine. AZL offers traction tires on their engines which pull even more cars. Every month offers more selections for modelers. You won't regret going Z.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:55:57 GMT -5
Here's a little video of a chessie system azl gp38-2 I did. It runs smoothly at slow speeds. I use MTL track for my layout. Micro trains are very reliable runners and tolerate dirtier track than AZL. I can always count on my MTL trains to run every time I out them On the track. The azls are reliable and better runners but the track has to be kept clean.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 16:03:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Many many years ago I had a Marklin HO layout, that is almost 30 years ago. The trains in the video run very smoothly I think. On the 1st of september I will be moving in to a new apartment. One of the main reasons for moving was getting one additional room dedicated to a lay-out. So I will not be starting small, I will build a big lay-out to begin with, that is why it is so important to me to find the right scale. If I dont like the scale for some reason a lot of money will be lost. I will be running North American trains only. Rokuhan track sounds really good. Reliable turnouts is something that I have read abount on many different forums, one guy even wrote that not getting his turnouts to work, this was a N scale layout, almost made him quit the hobby. So reliable turn-outs is a must for me, especially as a beginner. I really like AZLs locomotives, and I dont think they have that much less detail compared to other scales as people say they have. From the people I have spoken too I have a feeling that z scale is beeing made in to some kind of "dont do it" scale, from what they are saying I almost feel like nothing works in this scale and I simply refuse to believe that. Will AZLs locomotives and running stock run on Rokuhan track ? I would like to have the track look really realistic, is it possible to ballast the Rokuhan track myself ? And what about structures and buildings, I have been looking for ready build z scale structures but have not found any, how difficault are these structures to assemble ? Thanks again for the help. Kind regards Kim I would suggest visiting www.zscalemonster.com or one of the other dealers. Any z scale track will work for any z scale equipment. You will find a nice selection of buildings available as kits in brass and wood. Micro trains has a nice selection. I would suggest visiting zscalemonster.com or one of the other dealers. Any z scale track will work for any z scale equipment.
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Post by tjdreams on Aug 22, 2014 18:35:21 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum and Z scale As has bin said most of the negative comments about Z scale come from those who have no real hands on experience with Z scale. Give it a try and find out for yourself. All 14 of my AZL Locomotives (GP7, GP7, GP30, GP38-2, SD70m, 2-8-2 Mikado's) run just fine on Rokuhan 220mm radius track. In fact all 53 of my locos AZL, Marklin, Micro Trains, and Rokuhan all run fine on Rokuhan track. Some will run on smaller 195mm, 170mm or even 145mm radius track. But just like N, HO, O and all other scales Longer Locomotives like- Chalanger's, Bigboy's and some longer cars need a larger diameter track such as 245mm, or 270mm. You can ballast the road bed track the same as you would non road bed track. Just like the larger scale road bed track, If you take your time and check clearances with a gauge or a piece of rolling stock as you go no one will be able to tell the difference.
As for structures and buildings you will find more kits than ready built, While the smaller size may make some of the finer detail parts a bit of a challenge for the first time modeler, A experienced kit builder should have no difficulty in assembling the kits fine details and all.
David
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Post by markm on Aug 23, 2014 10:57:52 GMT -5
Kim, I think you'll do fine with Z. It sounds like you won't have any bad habits being carried over from HO.
All Z scale rolling stock will work on all manufacturers' track with the exception of the geometric limitations David already mentioned.
Here in the U.S. there are a number of small companies making structure kits, checkout the Monster Z site. What we lack in Z structures are building that date post-1960s.
As far as Z being a "don't do it" scale, we suffer from a bit of bad history. A few years back, Marklin had financial problems which resulted in some bad decisions at Marklin affecting product quality and a lot of rumors. I was told at one train store: "Marklin is dead, Z scale is dead." Well Marklin is still around and making Z (unlike the trains store which is closed). The quality and details of Z have steadily improved over the years as users demand more and manufacturing technology improves. The recent re-release of MTLs F7 is a good example: details have been improved over the 1999 release, including real air horns.
For detailing the Rokuhan tracks, I like to use a grey/black wash on the roadbed (usually 1:10 India Ink), apply rust to the rails, some color detail on the ties and apply a thin coat of very fine gravel on the roadbed outside of the rails.
Mark
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Aug 23, 2014 13:15:20 GMT -5
Velkommen til Z skala Kim, Du får unnskylde min norsk. Har arbeidet med Z skala siden 1997. Jeg kan på det sterkeste anbefale skalaen. Med vennlig hilsen, Hans Riddervold
(try google translate or just take my word that it is Norwegian for: Welcome to Z scale)
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Post by kimjensen1 on Aug 24, 2014 4:27:42 GMT -5
Hej Hans
Tak for svaret:) Jeg forstår dit Norske fint:)
It sure is nice to hear from people who actually know something about the scale.
I think the things I am able to do with this scale with the space I will be having available in my new apartment is quite something.
There is one thing I have tried to find out, but for some reasons seems confusing to me. The plywood board that will be the base for the layout will have a width of 81 cm, 31,9 inches. I will be running AZL locomotives, I prefer them compared to Micro Trains. How can it be that almost all windows on Micro Trains locomotives are black and not transparent plastic like on AZL locomotives ? To me it makes a big difference, makes them a lot more realistic.
Now my question is how sharp a 360* turn can I make with AZL locomotives running on Rokuhan track ?
And a few questions about sound decoders:
Are there any dummy cars where sound decoders can be installed ?
If not is it possible to fit a sound decoder in a locomotive ?
Thanks again for the help.
Kind regards Kim
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Post by markm on Aug 24, 2014 11:42:45 GMT -5
Kim, I won't even try to comment in Danish (or Norwegian or Swedish). Your "how sharp..." question is a bit complicated. I've run the GP30 and GP38-2 on 145mm R with 40 foot boxcars and think they would work on 120mm R. Longer locomotives and rolling stock require larger radius. The other part is what looks right. All curves in Z are sharper than the prototypes and all rolling stock will hang well beyond the edge of the track. So you want to pick a minimum radius that the cars "look right" going through the curve. Personally I prefer a minimum radius of 195mm. I'm still crawling when it comes to DCC decoders, particularly with sound. But here's a recent thread over on train board that you might find useful: www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?158270-Crawford-Hill-SD40-2-with-DCC-Sound&highlight=sound+decoderRegarding the windows on the MTL locos, they're not actually black. At the time the locos were designed, they hard to fill the interior with the mechanics, which is painted black. This is what you're seeing. In fact, the original F7 units shipped with no windows at all. Mark
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Post by tjdreams on Aug 24, 2014 12:31:16 GMT -5
For sound I was able to put a SoundTraxx Micro-Tsunami Decoder (TSU-750) in a AZL PC&F Beer Car, and have 2 others in the works, a older MTL F7 dummy B unit and a AZL Heavyweight Baggage Car. I have read where others have done similar with Auto racks, hollowed out double stack cars, and a few other cars. And I believe someone just recently shoehorned a WOW sound decoder into a steamer or maybe it was the tender. In any case the Bottom line is Yes You can put sound decoders in Z scale. However it dose require a fair amount of ingenuity and customization to get the job done.
David
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Aug 24, 2014 13:21:10 GMT -5
AZL Locomotives and Curve Radius As a general rule we tell our manufacturers that our locomotives must be able to handle 195mm curves. In some cases, especially with brass we are forced to raise the curve radius to 220mm. Many of our locomotives can handle curves far less than 195mm radius though. Small curves also limits longer freight cars. If I was building a new layout, I would avoid curves with a radius less than 220mm. When AZL entered the marked in the late 90s, almost all layouts were based on Marklin tracks. The larger and longer North American locomotives ran into problems on some layouts with small curves and curves just before tunnel portals. Who do not remember some layout fit problems with the first C44-9Ws and ALCO PAs? As with any scale, plan the layout carefully and make sure that the consist you want to run will run well on curves less than 195mm. And do not forget to make sure the tunnel portals are wide enough if they are placed on curves. Sincerely, Hans
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