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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 7:20:12 GMT -5
OK so we slowed down again and now it won't move. Body off, no go. Press the little black circuit board on the top and lights on, tries to move. Release pressure, nothing. I seem to remember reading something about this? is there any easy fix or shall i try for an RMA with supplier. had it barely 6 weeks. New CN GP38-2 is running ok so far, but so did the other one when I first got it.
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Post by ztrack on Aug 6, 2014 7:57:50 GMT -5
It sounds like the board needs reset. The connection appears to be loose. You can find the document on how to do so here: www.americanzline.com/category/tech-tips/Also check the trucks for grime or debris. If the trucks start to bind, the motor may heat up slightly. This little bit of heat can cause the contacts on the board to move and loose good connection. We also recommend a little Conductalube on all contact points. This will help keep things clean and electricity flowing nicely. Rob |
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 8:32:16 GMT -5
Experience so far with Z scale model railways:
Marklin BR89 - armature burnt up after 6 months gentle use. back in Germany with retailer now hoping for warranty repair with Marklin.
MTL F7 - first one barely moved, second one after RMA about 1% better, took it apart and found it was bone dry. Lubrication worked wonders
American Z - GP38-2 #1 ran superbly for about 1 month and restored my faith. it slowed down to a crawl and now does not run at all. suspect a problem with the PCB board which is well documented by manufacturer. (see above)
American Z - GP38-2 #2 - runs very well right now but only had it for about 10 days.
I am not sure how many people would be satisfied with this, I am certainly not.
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 10:38:10 GMT -5
It sounds like the board needs reset. The connection appears to be loose. Rob So does the board just lift out to allow adjustment to the contact tabs? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 12:37:52 GMT -5
What kind of transformer are you using?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 12:42:09 GMT -5
For you to have that much trouble makes it sound like the problem is something other than your engines. I burnt up a marklin f7 using a non Z rated transformer. I've got 3 azl gp38s and haven't had any problems. Break in is very important. Run them 30 minutes forward full throttle and 30 minutes in reverse full throttle.
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Post by markm on Aug 6, 2014 12:44:32 GMT -5
Graham,
You're experiences with Z have been very atypical. I've been doing Z since the mid 1980s and I've only had two manufacturer related problems: a broken coupler and hardened oil. I've run and seen run dozens of locos from all manufacturers for hours on end without problems so I know Z can be very reliable.
Having come from S scale myself, I found that Z can be very fussy. Before any operating session I'll dust off the track with an artist's brush, wipe the track with electronics grade wipes (lint-free, pure alcohol) and since my purchase of an Aztec track cleaning car, push the car through my layout. It sounds like a lot of work, but I've learned the hard way that hair, lint, house dust, even dandruff can mess up Z really bad, really fast.
I generally inspect and clean, as needed, locomotive trucks at the end of every session and put them away in the case. This may be overkill, but it's worked well for me.
As you've seen, I characterize my locomotive performance when I receive them. I generally don't open them up until I see the performance degrade or they don't run well on arrival. The poor runners at the start have been shells that were misaligned.
As you saw with your F7 a little bit of oil can do wonders, but just a tiny bit too much can get all over the place and the exposed contacts in Z are really intolerant of any contamination.
I may be stating the obvious but frankly it seems that you haven't run any of your locos long enough to have all the problems you're seeing. You seem to be buying from reputable sources, so I don't think you're buying someone else's problems. I have a fleet of several dozen AZL, MTL and Marklin locos and nothing I've bought new and maintained myself has come close to the problems you've experienced. It suggests there is "something" about your layout.
That said, Marklin has had a hardened oil problem and I assume any Marklin built before about 2005 should be re-lubricated. AZL had problems with the board coming loose with the first run of GP30s. And I really don't think there was any good reason for the F7 to be shipped without lubrication.
I'd like to see you as another happy Z scale enthusiast.
Hope this helps,
Mark
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 13:01:32 GMT -5
From what Rob says it does sound like the well documented PCB board problem loosing contact with motor. I will take a look at it myself later today. That would also explain why taking the shell off made an improvement. It probably moved that PCB board a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 13:57:22 GMT -5
From what Rob says it does sound like the well documented PCB board problem loosing contact with motor. I will take a look at it myself later today. That would also explain why taking the shell off made an improvement. It probably moved that PCB board a bit. That doesn't explain your other problems. Marklin engines are usually very reliable. I've got a smaller collection than some members but I've had 10 different engines. Marklin, AZL, and MTL and I haven't had a problem from any of them. I say had because I sold my MTL f7 because I didn't like it. It ran fine but it was noisy compared to everything else. Again I'll ask, what transformer are you using? I learned the hard way that a DC transformer compatible with N and HO is not compatible with Z. |
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 19:12:35 GMT -5
It sounds like the board needs reset. The connection appears to be loose. You can find the document on how to do so here: www.americanzline.com/category/tech-tips/Also check the trucks for grime or debris. If the trucks start to bind, the motor may heat up slightly. This little bit of heat can cause the contacts on the board to move and loose good connection. We also recommend a little Conductalube on all contact points. This will help keep things clean and electricity flowing nicely. Rob I think that was it Rob. OK here is the PCB board BEFORE adjusting (both photos) the contact tabs:   Pointing forwards! I realigned as per the article to point slightly backwards and she seems to be running very well again. I have the shell off for now but will hopefully be OK now, thanks. Please feel free to put these photos on the AZL web site if they will help any one else. |
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 21:13:15 GMT -5
Graham, You're experiences with Z have been very atypical. I've been doing Z since the mid 1980s and I've only had two manufacturer related problems: a broken coupler and hardened oil. I've run and seen run dozens of locos from all manufacturers for hours on end without problems so I know Z can be very reliable. Having come from S scale myself, I found that Z can be very fussy. Before any operating session I'll dust off the track with an artist's brush, wipe the track with electronics grade wipes (lint-free, pure alcohol) and since my purchase of an Aztec track cleaning car, push the car through my layout. It sounds like a lot of work, but I've learned the hard way that hair, lint, house dust, even dandruff can mess up Z really bad, really fast. I generally inspect and clean, as needed, locomotive trucks at the end of every session and put them away in the case. This may be overkill, but it's worked well for me. As you've seen, I characterize my locomotive performance when I receive them. I generally don't open them up until I see the performance degrade or they don't run well on arrival. The poor runners at the start have been shells that were misaligned. As you saw with your F7 a little bit of oil can do wonders, but just a tiny bit too much can get all over the place and the exposed contacts in Z are really intolerant of any contamination. I may be stating the obvious but frankly it seems that you haven't run any of your locos long enough to have all the problems you're seeing. You seem to be buying from reputable sources, so I don't think you're buying someone else's problems. I have a fleet of several dozen AZL, MTL and Marklin locos and nothing I've bought new and maintained myself has come close to the problems you've experienced. It suggests there is "something" about your layout. That said, Marklin has had a hardened oil problem and I assume any Marklin built before about 2005 should be re-lubricated. AZL had problems with the board coming loose with the first run of GP30s. And I really don't think there was any good reason for the F7 to be shipped without lubrication. I'd like to see you as another happy Z scale enthusiast. Hope this helps, Mark Thanks for your note Mark. I think resetting the PCB board has done the trick. Hopefully. There was an article on the AZL site so this seems to be a well known issue. Fortunately the fix was easy but that board is very delicate. Took a while to get it safely out and back in. Thanks for your support on other issues too. While the problems with MTL and AZL were rather frustrating, the support is good and they seem to be resolved by a bit of maintenance which is fine. Rob sent me several emails too. The Marklin issue however, caused by a known and well documented manufacturing problem with their 5 pole armatures will require a repair beyond my abilities and hence it is back for warranty work. I am still a Z scaler..never fear  |
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Post by markm on Aug 6, 2014 21:47:57 GMT -5
Graham,
Glad to read that you are satisfied with your fixes. I was concerned about the weird stuff that happens in electronics like turnout power being routed to the track or a 10V throttle that puts out 12VDC or worst, 12VAC!
In another life I was a Manufacturing Engineer. From the complexity of the AZL locomotives I'd expect about 1 out of 50 units failing prematurely in the customers' hands. Your experiences seemed way too high.
Mark
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 22:18:02 GMT -5
Graham, I was concerned about the weird stuff that happens in electronics like turnout power being routed to the track or a 10V throttle that puts out 12VDC or worst, 12VAC! Mark No worries. I have a digital voltmeter right by the tracks and I measure the applied voltage constantly. I even have my Marklin Z scale power controller (pale grey version) marked with labels as to exactly what voltage is being applied at all times. I know exactly what is being applied. |
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Post by grahame on Aug 6, 2014 22:21:05 GMT -5
I have a fleet of several dozen AZL, MTL and Marklin locos and nothing I've bought new and maintained myself has come close to the problems you've experienced. Mark Have you ever had to remove and adjust the PCB board on any of your AZL locos? It's not too bad. I was rather fearful of damaging board while removing it but I think I could do it again now without a problem. Slides out after lifting one end. Those photos tell the story. |
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Post by markm on Aug 6, 2014 22:42:52 GMT -5
Graham,
I think I was about the only person who received a GP30 from the first batch who didn't have to reseat the board (knock on wood)! But I'll be opening up the GP30 and GP38-2 soon because I want to convert some of them to DCC. It looks a lot easier than the MTL GPs which hold the PCB in place with an electrically conducting spring.
Mark
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