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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2023 5:37:37 GMT -5
Hello again (unfortunately) ... After removing all turnouts in my "upper" station, the turnouts in the lower station worked fine (12 V with 4 power diodes in series, i.e. between 9.5 and 10V , 1200 uF capacitors and the "Kato" schematics). This was so until a few days ago, when one of the 4 turnouts began, without any reason, to stay sometimes in an intermediate position when switching to the divergent direction (i.e. charging the capacitor). Meanwhile I replaced with 1500uF and removed the diodes, i.e. 12V ; the issue appears still randomly, and this could cause derailments ! After reading again the issues with the "left" turnouts, where a whole series was defective, I wonder if ROKUHAN TURNOUTS ARE REALLY RELIABLE OR SIMPLY CRAP ! Did anybody test directly the Kato switches with their 2200 uF capacitors, and if so, what voltage did he use (so I could try it with my relays) ? I can say that I am slowly but surely fed up, I think about removing ALL turnouts, convert my layout to a simple oval with only the Budd running through my scenery, and RESELL all my freight rolling stock. Or could a possible solution be the Noch switch, controlled by pulses generated by monoflops ? So the turnouts would get a "rectangular" pulse instead of the exponential generated by capacitive (dis)charge ? (In fact, no, meanwhile I saw that the Noch is capacitive, too).
On the other side I "heard from another modeller" about a layout with a "big" yard, where most Rokuhan turnouts died after 2 days at an exhibition (?). For myself I don't go to exhibitions since the pandemia ...
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Post by ztrack on Aug 14, 2023 7:37:54 GMT -5
I recommend ONLY using Rokuahn controllers for their turnouts. Is sounds like you created your own system, but any variances form the Rokuahn specs can damage the electronics. These are NOT Kato so don't rely on Kato schematics. Use the C002 controllers for the turnouts. A cain of C002s can be self powered with an A028 so no need to use a separate controller. If you insist on using your own solution, don't blame the turnouts for failures. The Rokuhan system is solid when using their products.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2023 8:50:46 GMT -5
Sorry, this has nothing to do with the control system, it worked fine ... for some time, and then the turnouts showed (seemingly) mechanical issues ... So, goodbye Rokuhan turnouts !
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 14, 2023 14:26:31 GMT -5
Sorry, this has nothing to do with the control system, it worked fine ... for some time, and then the turnouts showed (seemingly) mechanical issues ... So, goodbye Rokuhan turnouts ! I had similar problems with Rokuhan turnouts. I was using a capacitive discharge system to activate them similar to yours. What I discovered was that the Rokuhan turnouts use a smaller gauge of magnet wire for the mechanisms than Kato and others. This was leading to a slow failure of the switch mechanism. I replaced the failed switches, eliminated the capacitor discharge and everything has run perfectly ever since. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2023 23:04:39 GMT -5
Sorry, it feels rather like a mechanical problem, related with dust or wear. The "sled" sometimes does not reach its end position but often it does, it's a question of tenths of a millimeter, so the moving part does not flip completely. BTW, the original Rokuhan system (and it seems to be the same for Noch) is capacitive, too (with 1000 uF : initially I used 1200 and increased to 1500 without success ! ) And then there is another detail which bothers me : due to the moving coil, the wire (as thin as a hair) is bent back and forth, I am afraid that this will lead sooner or later to breaking (especially in conjunction with temperature) ... Rokuhan should better have choosen the "opposite" solution : coil fixed, magnets moving, like Kato.
I don't wanna a "sword of Damocles" on my layout which, according to Murphy, will trigger a failure when visitors are awaited ... As I wrote, the main feature is the landscape and scenery, and a double Budd running various itineraries (back and forth, turn without or with stop, double turn, in both directions i.e. 8 possibilities) between both stations is enough for me. My Märklin layout in the 60's was initially a simple "flat" oval with one train (and only one station ... ) and much less scenery, and I was happy !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 22:52:12 GMT -5
Last chance for the Rokuhan turnouts to be kept on my layout : did anybody use the ORIGINAL Kato switches with 2200 uF capacitor and, if so, what voltage did he use ? I wonder if the bigger capacitor would perhaps be enough to "kick" the turnouts to their end position ... or burn them ?  |
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Post by Curn on Aug 16, 2023 18:36:04 GMT -5
I was playing with driving a Rokuhan turnout with a Arduino motor shield that uses a L298P driver. The chip loses about 2V of potential across it. So when driving it with a 12 volt supply voltage only about 10V got to the turnout. With this driving voltage (~10V), it only took a 5 millisecond on time to switch the turnout. If I tried to power the system with a 9V battery, ~7V to the turnout, switching was inconsistent. It would work one way, but not the other. And at some point, one of the header connectors was loose so the off command wasn't received by the driver, and I quickly melted a turnout.
But the lesson is you really only need a 5 ms impulse of 9-10 volts to move the turnout reliably. 7 volts is too low for consistent operation. 3 ms is too short for consistent operation, and anything longer than 5 ms is probably just causing excess heat. And these results are based on an n=1 from a turnout, and I have no idea about the longevity of the switch.
The Noch 60264 seems to be using a 1000 µF capacitor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2023 22:38:30 GMT -5
Thanks for Your answer. If I "think back", from the 8 initial turnouts on my layout I had to replace at least the halfth ... And there was one which didn't respond anymore, after some time (burnt ? wire broken ?) No, finally I think I will remove them all and as I wrote keep only a simple oval for my Budd running through the scenery, which is in my eyes the most important thing on my layout (with on "operational" carnival). A least this configuration is reliable !
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Post by Curn on Aug 17, 2023 2:29:23 GMT -5
I took apart a Rokuhan turnout switch. It is a simple circuit with two 1000 µF capacitors, one for each turnout direction. A Rokuhan controller delivers 12 volts to the capacitors. There are two diode to control current flow, and a spdt switch. So the official Rokuhan driver is just a 1000 µF discharge circuit charged at 12 V.
Another though I had, if you are having issues with a sticking internal mechanism, not a melted or damaged magnet wire, is to give a little slack on the back plate holding everything together. From the facing (mainline inlet) side of the turnout, there are two smaller screws on the back, then two larger ones. Of these smaller screws, the 2nd one holds much of the actual point lever mechanism in place to move the points. Back that screw off 1/8th a turn and see if that loosens things up enough to where the turnout operates smoothly. If you are going to toss them anyways, might as well give it a try.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 7:10:55 GMT -5
Thanks, but the main problem is to remove the turnout from the layout, since it is mounted "between" other tracks (it is necessary to loosen about 30 to 40 cm at each side), and to put it back (and repair again the ballast). And, thanks to Murphy, this will happen when You are awaiting visitors. No, my decision is : NO MORE TURNOUTS !
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Post by BAZman on Aug 17, 2023 21:54:12 GMT -5
Now I know why I've had some strange L298 H-bridge: the Enable (drive) is Max 7 volts, NOT 12 !!! And a little slugguy on the Tortoise/Cobalts: up to 2 volts drop !! I'll have to change to IDXN404 Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
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Post by Curn on Aug 18, 2023 11:28:12 GMT -5
Now I know why I've had some strange L298 H-bridge: the Enable (drive) is Max 7 volts, NOT 12 !!! And a little slugguy on the Tortoise/Cobalts: up to 2 volts drop !! I'll have to change to IDXN404 View AttachmentView AttachmentThe enable drive voltage of 7 volts I believe means the absolute maximum logic or VSS voltage for the L298 drivers. For Arduino the digital pins that control on/off, direction, and PWM are 5 volts. I hope you don't mean you were controlling the on/off function with a physical switch at 12 volts! Yikes. That would explain some strange behavior. Hopefully the engineers are like Scotty and were a wee bit conservative, at least on paper. |
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Post by BAZman on Aug 19, 2023 13:23:15 GMT -5
Maybe, but no obvious, yet. Been 2 years for the Wye in a show. I had replaced several Tortoise to make more lateral space in the Yard (and to stop busting the Tortoise off as the hang down ‘below’ the 3-1/2 frame).
I replaced them with Cobalt’s but the current was too high (~20-30ma) for the Wabbit’s LM324 drivers. So the $2 L298’s made for a cheap, quick buffer Driver.
I’ll be visit this on a month oar so, before the upcoming IRF Show @cal Expo
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Post by BAZman on Aug 23, 2023 12:06:56 GMT -5
WAYyyyyyyyy back in the turn of the Century, one had a large square hole in the roadbed and a BEHEMOTH Tortoise with a short steel plate in contact to the turnout. Another version had a magnet on the wire penetrate rhe roadbed. Both I would say, were Rube Goldbergs.
In the mean time, i cannot find any ‘certified’ Kato schematic so the wife has some for her starting layout. I bought a Kato Turnout Control Switch (24-840) and their Standard Power SX (22-018) and the DC Adapter (24-829). The turnout control switch, and the DC adapter have the snap fittings on each side and stack in any order onto the side of the power pack. Opening the DC adapter has no components inside other than creating a more lax type connector for DC accessories of the user kind. Just plain nothing in it. And the turn off control switch. (left/right) also has zero electrical components inside. Period. It is just a molded interior with lots of phosphor bronze wiring that allows some jail-bar moves to change the polarity from the power pack’s fixed bus to this switch outlet. There is NO electronic components in there, and therefore would not be viable to use for a turn out!
The Kato stuff is kind of difficult to figure out what you need or what you get because you’re buried in the Japanese language along with some simplified English, but no real schematic set ups that I could find that show a typical power pack, and additional accessories in laid out. The power pack itself had no AC DC conversion required, ONLY direct DC. it implied AC when I purchased it so if I go to try to find the power pack that supports AC input because with turn out switch with no electronics in it , it has to rely on external components (that would be obviously mounted into the power back) for a capacitance discharge to be fed to the turn out itself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2023 9:19:22 GMT -5
Finally I will "try" to open the 4 turnouts, remove the coil and the magnets (which could only cause trouble), keep only the mechanics which move the turnout's moveable part and the switch to power the frog (switching the tracks was done by the relays, not the turnouts). Then I will try to drill a hole either into the longitudinal "sled" at the underside or the lateral handlever if possible, for the (about 0.65 mm in thickness, 0.025") metalic rod of the Tortoise Circuitron 800-6000 (the "green" one) and add three Omron 2DPT relais (1.90 Euro each) to power the motors in both directions (two turnouts operate in parallel) since I have only one contact left on my 4DPT relays (which will power these "secundary" relays in two wire mode). All the way I couldn't have made this modification (IF it works ... ) for the "upper" station, the access from beneath being quasi-impossible, so this will all the way stay with the present situation of only one track ... like many village stations around 1970.
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