hideaki
Fireman
I really love American Z scale Locomotives!
Posts: 50
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Post by hideaki on Jun 8, 2023 13:49:54 GMT -5
Hi all, Is there anyone using Gaugemaster HF-1 on your layout? As you know Z scale locos are so cute, so they have problem on continuous electrical contact. I am using two HF-1 on my DC layout. One for main line and another one for reversing loop. I have a plan to convert DC layout to DCC, but Gaugemaster official statement says, they can not work on DCC track because HF-1's voltage spike may burn loco decorders. Is it true? If someone using HF-1 on DCC track, please teach me how they work or not.
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Post by BAZman on Jun 9, 2023 1:04:05 GMT -5
Correct, DC *only*. So if your locos have problems, they can have issues with DCC.
The HF operates only when there is no current sensed. This is random in time, duration and location. This can be from crud, oxidized rail and even the loco wheels/trucks wobbling. The HF1 the.n immediately generates very high frequency AC and very high voltage (@very low current) to try to bust the crud off. If there is current drawn from loco, it does not do this, just passes the DC from the Power pack.
This high frequency/voltage caused micro-pitting of the rail and nickel plating on the wheels (thats MICRO, under HIGH magnification).
With DCC, the track power is also ‘AC’ (alternating current) which is in a square wave essentially on-off, making digital data and is around 8-9 KHz. The voltage is 12-15 volts, peak-to-peak. So, these DCC feature ‘can’ help alleviate the just DC way.
But DCC has so many benefits but let’s focus on Loco benefits. One, there is always power on the track. That power keeps the Decoder constantly decoding that loco’s Address CV’s. The Motor runs on PWM, like LEDs but @16khz. Decoders have 28 Speed Steps Nominal but can also 128 Speed Steps.
Speed Step 1 then turns on the motor (@12-15 volt, whatever the DCC system is) for 1 period and then turns it off 23 periods (doing this 16,000 times per second. Making the motor have an impulse affect to help start the motor and affectively make it crawl. As speed steps are increased the 1:23. Changes to 2:22 and eventually around maybe 12 periods on and 12 periods off for running speed again all at 16,000 times a second. So motors run quite smooth.
Decoders also have other CVs that affect starting features and running features such as BEMF (electrical term for automatically changing the voltages for the situation) like grades up or long running trains, or even just simply starting the locomotive. If you choose 1 2 or 3 Speed Step, and the locomotive doesn’t seem to run. It knows that and starts pounding it with internal speed steps much higher to try to get the locomotive the run at speech step say, three. It’s not all perfect but that’s the concept.Decoder manufacturers will tell you that they really don’t work for our Zscale locomotives as the current that it use is so low it does not know what to do with it they were designed for nominally HO performance .
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hideaki
Fireman
I really love American Z scale Locomotives!
Posts: 50
|
Post by hideaki on Jun 9, 2023 13:35:25 GMT -5
Hi BAZ Man, Thank you for your detailed explanation. I think I have solved big mystery. Although their two concept are different, I think that "using HF on DC track" and "the motor control by DCC pulse" can both work so-called "secondary effect of stack reduction". Does the CV9, or PWM frequency setting of a typical DCC decoder affect this phenomenon? If you have time, I would appreciate your further reply. Because in Japan, DCC is not so popular at all.... With DCC, the track power is also ‘AC’ (alternating current) which is in a square wave essentially on-off, making digital data and is around 8-9 KHz. The voltage is 12-15 volts, peak-to-peak. So, these DCC feature ‘can’ help alleviate the just DC way. But DCC has so many benefits but let’s focus on Loco benefits. One, there is always power on the track. That power keeps the Decoder constantly decoding that loco’s Address CV’s. The Motor runs on PWM, like LEDs but @16khz. Decoders have 28 Speed Steps Nominal but can also 128 Speed Steps. Speed Step 1 then turns on the motor (@12-15 volt, whatever the DCC system is) for 1 period and then turns it off 23 periods (doing this 16,000 times per second. Making the motor have an impulse affect to help start the motor and affectively make it crawl. As speed steps are increased the 1:23. Changes to 2:22 and eventually around maybe 12 periods on and 12 periods off for running speed again all at 16,000 times a second. So motors run quite smooth.
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Post by cwrr on Jun 9, 2023 14:37:48 GMT -5
Hi hideaki!
Nice layout, got more pics we can see? Looks great from your pic!
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hideaki
Fireman
I really love American Z scale Locomotives!
Posts: 50
|
Post by hideaki on Jun 12, 2023 14:16:55 GMT -5
Hi hideaki! Nice layout, got more pics we can see? Looks great from your pic! Thank you cwrr! These three contours were originally made in European style, but since last year I've been obsessed with American loco. So now, all catenaries have been removed. I can show you some pics bellow.
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hideaki
Fireman
I really love American Z scale Locomotives!
Posts: 50
|
Post by hideaki on Jun 12, 2023 14:21:39 GMT -5
And two more pics. Attachments:
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Post by cwrr on Jun 12, 2023 15:27:03 GMT -5
Beautiful layout with lots of details, love it!
Your yard is huge! With American prototype trains, you could fill it up with lots of trains!
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Post by domi on Jul 9, 2023 11:37:16 GMT -5
Correct, DC *only*. So if your locos have problems, they can have issues with DCC. The HF operates only when there is no current sensed. This is random in time, duration and location. This can be from crud, oxidized rail and even the loco wheels/trucks wobbling. The HF1 the.n immediately generates very high frequency AC and very high voltage (@very low current) to try to bust the crud off. If there is current drawn from loco, it does not do this, just passes the DC from the Power pack. This high frequency/voltage caused micro-pitting of the rail and nickel plating on the wheels (thats MICRO, under HIGH magnification). With DCC, the track power is also ‘AC’ (alternating current) which is in a square wave essentially on-off, making digital data and is around 8-9 KHz. The voltage is 12-15 volts, peak-to-peak. So, these DCC feature ‘can’ help alleviate the just DC way. But DCC has so many benefits but let’s focus on Loco benefits. One, there is always power on the track. That power keeps the Decoder constantly decoding that loco’s Address CV’s. The Motor runs on PWM, like LEDs but @16khz. Decoders have 28 Speed Steps Nominal but can also 128 Speed Steps. Speed Step 1 then turns on the motor (@12-15 volt, whatever the DCC system is) for 1 period and then turns it off 23 periods (doing this 16,000 times per second. Making the motor have an impulse affect to help start the motor and affectively make it crawl. As speed steps are increased the 1:23. Changes to 2:22 and eventually around maybe 12 periods on and 12 periods off for running speed again all at 16,000 times a second. So motors run quite smooth. Decoders also have other CVs that affect starting features and running features such as BEMF (electrical term for automatically changing the voltages for the situation) like grades up or long running trains, or even just simply starting the locomotive. If you choose 1 2 or 3 Speed Step, and the locomotive doesn’t seem to run. It knows that and starts pounding it with internal speed steps much higher to try to get the locomotive the run at speech step say, three. It’s not all perfect but that’s the concept.Decoder manufacturers will tell you that they really don’t work for our Zscale locomotives as the current that it use is so low it does not know what to do with it they were designed for nominally HO performance . Jeff, I’m puzzled by your statement. If I have a clear understanding, that means that in DCC ‘’true voltage’’ that arrives to motors’ contacts, indeed under the shape of ‘’square waves’’, are in the 12-15 volt range ? I always heard that using PWM with ‘’crest voltage’’ more than the typical 8-10 volt range that fits with our Z scale models could be deadly for them.. Myself I started using a PWM power pack rated at 12 volts and I smoked 3 or 4 motors on my z scale locos…That’s why as a currently DC guy I’m using a PWM power pack dedicated to Z scale, with a ‘’crest voltage’’ of 8.1 volts.. Thus I have flawlessly been operating my Z scale locos for more than 10 years. As far as I thought I had understood, DCC indeed works with a 12-15 volt (AC current) constantly feeding track, and then this current would be transformed in the decoder into PW DC current with a crest voltage of 8-10 volts matching our z scale motors. I would be interrested with your input, and that of other fellow members here.😉 Dom
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Post by BAZman on Jul 9, 2023 13:58:24 GMT -5
I will try to create some graphics (digital computer animation and video content) to explain. I am almost finished with reorganizing the train room. What product did you first use. There are a few thoughts on it. But basically: Motors are rated approximately 8-10 volts . . . .without load (no cars/wagons *and* friction (e.g. trucks, gears, linkage, etc.) Motors not loaded are rated will run all day at those rated voltages. Running DC motors at lower speeds are less efficient (at say half the volts, only 40% and at quarter voltage, 15%). The heat is still a large %
Motors have windings to create magnetic fields. “Permanent Magnet” motors like MTL and early AZL have thicker gauge windings and more metal mass, run warmer (the magnetic physics efficiencies) “Newer” Coreless motors have much finer wire, less mass, somewhat better efficiencies.
The theoretical perfectly pure DC (e.g. a battery, not a transformer-type) you would think 9 volts is 9 volts, to the motor. No! Every time the Armature rotates around, the Brushes switch to another of the 3 or 5 winding on the armature. This release of energy is the same as your automobile spark plug, HIGH voltages! That is why there is Capacitor (Condenser) to ‘snub’ them.
The DCC ‘AND” the PWM power put (theoretically) digital 101010 on-off-on- but electronics on perfect, there are wires and such all over the place acting on the too. With a PWM controller supplied with DC, it should not matter at all (when the PWM moment is off, there is nothing to the track). If you supply, say 9V, the PWM Controller begins to turn on for a very short period time, then Off a much longer time, then back on for that same short period of time, etc. This is done ~50x per second (50 Hertz) with cheap 5$ or higher 200 for LED dimmers or up to 16 to 32KHz (!!!) in DCC to the motors.
Heat is #1. BY FAR! DC running For the ones that don’t maintain or run longer trains, on grades, mismatched loco speeds or turn up the Power, because thats where the like or needed to make them happy, are going to have high probability. “Over voltage” is way down the list. 1000’s of us with DCC @12 volts with ‘0’ problems. Loco motors are turned on 16,000 times/sec, 10-50%
In both DC, PWM the voltage applied to the motor contacts can be >100 volts with very short times (think microseconds) but a LOT and ‘all day’ so the motor windings with their enamel coatings survive extremely well. But a motor that that is not moving, that single winding in the motor that was designed to change (magnetically) is going to have HEAT.
In DCC, decoders have the ability to keep your trains running at the same “Speed” with a motor feedback feature named ‘BEMF’, Back Electromotive Force. DCC has 128 Speed Steps, to get each locomotive to run the same speed (by adjusting internal CV values), and especially to start your locomotive from a crawl all the way up to running speed. When starting at Speed Step 1, it will send 16,000 pulses that are only ‘On’ (~12 volt track power) for 1/128 of the time. So these tiny tiny tiny tiny little spikes pounding the motor 16,000 times a second will eventually keep moving the motor in micro increments. This BEMF function says “I don’t like the current in the motor e.g. “ I’m stalled, I’m not moving” so the decoder automatically overrides the Speed Steps to try to get the motor to run faster. It will change the Speech Steps up very fast, as much as 30 of 128 or even more! However, it does not work as desired with our small cordless motors, as the algorithms were designed for much more current, mainly in the HO locomotives. This can cause a problem of a locomotive having a burnt motor if Speed Steps in DCC were left at 1, 2 ~5 Steps when you thought you turned it all the way to 0.
Happy to discuss. I will find my oscilloscope pictures but need to make a few more for a long time.
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Post by domi on Jul 10, 2023 3:49:43 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. BTW, not easy to understand for a non-electrical engineer.🤔 Anyway, when it’s time for me to switch to DCC I guess I will find some good advise in this forum..😉👍
Dom
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