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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 13:51:18 GMT -5
Post by ModelMaster on Mar 2, 2014 13:51:18 GMT -5
Hello,
Is there anyone else that has had the trouble I have with this model? GP38-2 AZL
My first one I received was dead in the water, never ran from the box to the track first time out. When I dismantled it I saw how badly the construction is compared to the other Z scale models I own, not impressed with the construction of this model either I did however find that the pc board and the contacts to the chassis was the issue only way out would be to do some micro soldering (hard wire) the pc board to the unit. Its a new model train loco, so not going to rebuild, it should work right out of he box without me having to re build it.
Thankfully the retailer did tell me to send it back and they would exchange it for a different brand of Z scale MTL UP. UNFORTUNATELY they sent me a replacement! ANOTHER GP38-2 CN by AZL! SOOO BIG misunderstanding there. Not impressed over this as well.
When I did received the second GP38-2 the first thing I did was to see if it would work, so I put it on the track put power to it LOW power and IT WORKED!!! I was so happy, so I ran it from low to just about medium power from my Rokuhan power pack. No problems, a little slow I thought compare to the other 2 brands of locos I have but still it works. I decided to try just about full speed as it is still new and not broken in yet so from low medium to medium high and guess what no change in speed not impressed. So from there I measured the rails to make sure they were getting the voltage and yes the rails were getting the voltage that I was inputting from the controller. Tried one of my other brand of loco no issues worked great. hmmmmmm ok by know I started to realize that AZL GP38-2 is working but just barely. here is my findings so far.
volts on rail 5 volts speed scale from 1-10, 10 being fastest. AZL 3 Pro-Z 5 Marklin 5
Volts on rail 8
AZL 3 Pro-Z 7-8 Marklin 7-8
Now, is this the speed of this loco or is it a weak motor? It runs great as for forward and reverse with no stalls but it bothers me that the motor rpm does not change when I add more voltage to the rails like the other brands do, to me this indicates a weak motor. magnets or armature is faulty. what do you think?
ALL of this was over a 6 week period and 5 mins of track time NOT impressed!. I just started out not more than 3 months ago in model trains N scale and Z scale, Z scale being my main scale, My N scale is ready for a track layout and have most of what I want to start with. everything works with no problems. So far knock on wood lol
But my Z scale is hung up because I cant get a working freight loco. Its discouraging. Am I missing somthing? Have I made the model train gods unhappy some how?
I wish I could post something positive about this product but it just never gave me anything to do that. No one wants to deal with badly made anything. I have no model train retailers here except one that has 3 train sets and a couple of trees. The store is all about my main summer hobby which is radio control models. so no real choice there. I have to order online or do without simple as that. When I do order online its costly shipping handling border fees not to mention tariffs and Canada customs. What a pain!
I just don't know what I should do at this point, AZL is the only affordable Z scale that makes Canadian Locos CN or CP. I guess I will have to phone Model Train stuff again and hope they will allow me to send it back
or do I take the hit on this GP38-2 and keep it as a reminder never to buy AZL products again or wait another 3 to 4 weeks returning it if the retailer allows me to send it back AGAIN! REALLY NOT IMPRESSED WITH AZL right now!
What would you guys suggest,
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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 14:44:19 GMT -5
Post by markm on Mar 2, 2014 14:44:19 GMT -5
"Modelmaster" I can't comment on your issues with AZL, but I can give you some thoughts on performance. I own 5 AZL GPs (30 & 38-2) and found them to be good performers. I characterize all my locomotives for speed and power over various loads and grades. I can tell you there is a vast variation between manufacturers' locomotives. While I don't have any Pro-Z equipment to evaluate, I can tell you that at a 7.5V DC throttle, my fleet ranges from a scale 45MPH for an MTL SD-40-2 to 140MPH for a Marklin F7, with the AZL GPs at about 65MPH. I've been in Z for a while and what I think I see is a trend for the more modern model designs to run at a more prototypically correct speeds. So you can expect the differences in speed. Here's some of my data from the AZL GPs that you can compare the performance of your loco: When I test a new loco, prior to testing,I spend about 40 minutes running it in break-in: 5 minutes each at 1/2 and full throttle forward/ reverse, clockwise/counter-clockwise. The break-in frequently makes a big difference in the performance. Hope this helps, Mark
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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 15:39:16 GMT -5
Post by ModelMaster on Mar 2, 2014 15:39:16 GMT -5
"Modelmaster" I can't comment on your issues with AZL, but I can give you some thoughts on performance. I own 5 AZL GPs (30 & 38-2) and found them to be good performers. I characterize all my locomotives for speed and power over various loads and grades. I can tell you there is a vast variation between manufacturers' locomotives. While I don't have any Pro-Z equipment to evaluate, I can tell you that at a 7.5V DC throttle, my fleet ranges from a scale 45MPH for an MTL SD-40-2 to 140MPH for a Marklin F7, with the AZL GPs at about 65MPH. I've been in Z for a while and what I think I see is a trend for the more modern model designs to run at a more prototypically correct speeds. So you can expect the differences in speed. Here's some of my data from the AZL GPs that you can compare the performance of your loco: When I test a new loco, prior to testing,I spend about 40 minutes running it in break-in: 5 minutes each at 1/2 and full throttle forward/ reverse, clockwise/counter-clockwise. The break-in frequently makes a big difference in the performance. Hope this helps, Mark WoW that is a vast difference in performance I will have to do a proper break in. My main concern was that the loco was weak but I can see now from your data that it could very well be doing what it was intended for. It will do prototypical speeds with no issues at all right now. I just did not have good reliable information on this until now thank you for this. I guess what bothered me is the fact that the motor rpm does not change after it hit just over its prototypical speeds. Is there something onboard that alters the voltage to stop it from juicing the motor , or is it a combo of gear reduction and voltage regulation that does it? just curious And thanks again for the data.
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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 16:20:23 GMT -5
Post by markm on Mar 2, 2014 16:20:23 GMT -5
Happy to oblige on the data. Personally, I consider a locomotive to be a true model only if at max throttle it runs within about 10% of the prototype max (with is 55MPH, 100MPH and 55/65MPH respectively for my previous example). I have a hard time determining the RPM of these coreless motors, just too silent. When I ran my first GP test, I turned away from the layout to enter the data and when I looked back the loco was half way around the loop! I didn't turn the throttle completely off and it crept around on just 2 volts. BTW: for a freight train, my GP38-2s will do at least 200gm of load (about 20 40' boxcars) and do 45MPH at max throttle. My only issues with the AZL GPs has been the headlight: too blue for some production runs and on some locos the unit will start moving (very slowly) before the headlight come on. I sympathize regarding purchasing Z: I'm several hours drive from any hobby shop. For mail order, you might want to consider smallwonder-z.com/default.aspx, a BC company. I've dealt with them several times quite successfully. Mark
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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 16:58:00 GMT -5
Post by gyroflyer on Mar 2, 2014 16:58:00 GMT -5
ModelMaster, that's a bummer. Like Markm said, I can't comment on your issues with AZL but I have two of them and they work great. Even outdid my MTL. I didn't break mine in as per Mark's method but I did put some cars behind them and just ran them for about a half an hour. I'm using the Railpower 1300.
I hope it all works out for you.
Mark C.
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gp38-2
Mar 2, 2014 17:24:08 GMT -5
Post by boxcarwilly on Mar 2, 2014 17:24:08 GMT -5
MM, I have several locos in my Fleet of 16 which include AZL and MTL and I don't have a problem with any of them. The GP 38's from AZL will run slower then MTL's GP 9's and 35's but that's to be expected because they are two different motors. I have three GP 38's and five 35's and I mix and match all the time. I don't have a problem with running them at all. Ss for me, it's just a matter of finding which ones run best together. My SD70's and 40's often find themselves working together too and again I have no problems with pulling or speed as the AZL's tend to slow the MTL's down which evens things out in the end. My problem is keeping them coupled as I find they tend to disconnect when you don't want them too. Perhaps the speed problem is your track. Dirty track plays havoc with these little guys. Even the slightest amount of grit or grease, even body oil from fingers, will cause these engines to run poorly. You have to keep the tracks clean, clean, clean. I clean mine before every use. The other thing you might want to check is your track connections and power pack. I use MRC packs and Atlas terminal joiners which are connected to under table blocks and fed by a master feed wire direct to the power pack. If any of your connections are loose or a stray wire is touching something it shouldn't, you'll get a power drain if not an outright short. One more thing too, you'll find that with these engines, doesn't matter who makes them, they need to be run to loosen things up. Trying to run them full tilt or even half tilt right out of the box doesn't always work because the gears are too tight from the shop. They have to be run to get the grease and oil working in the gears and to loosen them up. Once they've had sufficient running time, I think you'll find they will run much better.
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 8:09:05 GMT -5
Post by Rob Albritton on Mar 3, 2014 8:09:05 GMT -5
WoW that is a vast difference in performance I will have to do a proper break in. My main concern was that the loco was weak but I can see now from your data that it could very well be doing what it was intended for. It will do prototypical speeds with no issues at all right now. I just did not have good reliable information on this until now thank you for this. I guess what bothered me is the fact that the motor rpm does not change after it hit just over its prototypical speeds. Is there something onboard that alters the voltage to stop it from juicing the motor , or is it a combo of gear reduction and voltage regulation that does it? just curious And thanks again for the data. Your locomotive appears to be performing as designed. We engineer for the most prototypical operation possible: excellent "creep" qualities, and a top speed that is similar to the actual prototype. After decades of "slot car" type trains from overseas, we decided the details of Z scale had grown to the point where low speed operations were as important as high speed. Now this means that our speeds do not match other manufactures, but why should we be stuck in the past and make accommodations for 1972 technology? Your loco speed should top out around 10 volts, but it is rated for 12 volts. This is an artifact of the "stall" characteristics of the motor, and the way it is wound. Our 7.5mm motor will survive a full stall a 8 volts for much longer than the motors you will find in other trains. Good luck and have fun! -Robert AZL PS: Hope you are now a little more positively impressed with the GP38-2!
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 10:36:55 GMT -5
Post by emaley on Mar 3, 2014 10:36:55 GMT -5
I just got my first GP-38-2 last week and I love it. It took a bit of breakin, and it runs great. I have 4 different AZL locomotives and am very pleased with them all. My F59 can pull 3 Bombardier coaches over a 4% grade. Works for me.
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 11:07:56 GMT -5
Post by markm on Mar 3, 2014 11:07:56 GMT -5
Rob(A), You get so many of these "My AZL runs so slow.." questions, maybe it's time to publish some sort of document that can set a users expectations. A long time ago, in a far off place, manufacturers used to publish something like this: Mark
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 13:55:30 GMT -5
Post by modelwarships on Mar 3, 2014 13:55:30 GMT -5
I have 3 GP-38's, and 1 GP-30. Two of the 38's have a limited top speed and I run them as a set. The other, like my GP-30 runs the full range of the throttle. These units are kept paired as they do run well together. I assign them to my priority freights. I don't mind the limited top end on the two 38's as they now have a much more prototypical speed. All of these units have a fantastic low speed and will crawl smoothly at minimum throttle. I have noticed that after periods of inactivity, that all of mine need some warmup time. Afterwards they run faster. The two slower GP-38's didn't get the same break in as the faster as I was so anxious to run them. That might have something to do with the speed difference, or it could just be that batch of motors were manufactured slightly different. I also have HO scale engines that have speed ranges all over the board. So this is not something new to me.
If your not happy, consider trading your chassis with someone who doesn't want the higher top speed.
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 14:25:58 GMT -5
Post by markm on Mar 3, 2014 14:25:58 GMT -5
Timothy, Sounds like you're a bit happier. One thing with Z scale, we are just getting technology that other scales have seen for years (decades?): prototypical speed, drop-in DCC, to name a few. So, as I mentioned to Rob(A), your performance question is fairly common.
Mark
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 14:31:03 GMT -5
Post by catt on Mar 3, 2014 14:31:03 GMT -5
I hear "Can't it go any faster than that" at almost every show I attend. It has got to the point where I just say "These are scale models,if I wanted toys I would have bought Lionel".
I hear the same dumba$$ questions when I run my N scale too.My HO friends tell me they get the same thing.
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gp38-2
Mar 3, 2014 14:43:00 GMT -5
Post by ModelMaster on Mar 3, 2014 14:43:00 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for all your help. I see now I been approaching this with the mind of an R/C modeler, go fast or go home lol.
Got to shift gears here and realize that I am modeling this hobby after prototypical reality not first to the finish line.
Markm what a great idea to publish a data sheet like that, it would help a great deal.
Robert A. thank you for the information, It does explain a lot and does reset my mind set to what it needs to be in dealing with this stuff. Your right as for the time line and speeds just never connected the dots. But it makes a lot of sense to me now... Bet your tired of newbie comments like mine lol.
I did run the loco again today and well dam it I got to say prototypically I am IMPRESSED! this thing well slow down to a creep that none of my other locos do. hmmm dam it now I got to rethink brand name lol.
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Joes
Fireman
Posts: 84
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gp38-2
Mar 7, 2014 19:55:40 GMT -5
Post by Joes on Mar 7, 2014 19:55:40 GMT -5
Locomotive slow to mid range performance is everything. My gp 38 runs very well at both and without a doubt is the best value on Z for a locomotive. For the price and performance nothing is better.
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gp38-2
Mar 11, 2014 15:55:24 GMT -5
Post by domi on Mar 11, 2014 15:55:24 GMT -5
My 3 GP38s: the cheapest locos I have, and among my best runners (with AZL Sd70s and MTL Geeps and SD40). I love watching them creeping at a scale man walking speed. Unfortunately my Geeps are not going oftenly on my layout as they are (still) undecs... Dom
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