max63
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Post by max63 on Oct 14, 2013 14:59:08 GMT -5
Hi you guys I just subscribed to this forum only to post this message. I searched the net and it seems that no one else than me find the looks and details of the AZL BigBoy strange. Actually I have two hearts in my chest about the Big Boy. One says "great - I have waited soooo many years - THANKS AZL". The other is disappointed because it seems again a communication problem between us Europeans (US are part of these people) and Asians. This is the only explanation I have that makes sense, that the challenger (I have 3960, a superb machine! at least compared to the big boy) MADE IN KOREA apparently does stick to the design and on the other hand the wild INTERPRETATION of a Big Boy MADE IN CHINA! If it where a full scale machine it would simply NOT WORK. How can a designer in a factory be so ignorant? Still have no clue? Well, do compare the side view with a challenger or a photograph. You will notice that the aft cylinders (left and right ones) are not connected to their tube that comes from the front. This is not a detail, this is a crucial optical landmark. You unpack it and you see it at first glance. Of course there are other finer tubings missing. At least the level of the challenger could be maintained for that price. I mean, even in chinas steam locos the walk around the boiler is surely made of some antislip material. The challenger has some grooving to give this impression. On the big Boy Boy NOTHING. Since this is a detail you can see from above, one does not need any glasses to see this even in Z. It does impair the general impression from above and it is a typical item on a steam engine. I am not counting rivets! Sorry that I have not posted any pictures, but I am not equipped at the moment, besides opinions should be based on personal experience. And a second production run is announced! The "prototype" did show the unconnected tube already: azlforum.com/post/331To make the list full: Fingerprints on the tender, thick paint so details get camouflaged, the coal is not so nice than on the challenger. You are welcome to ad more. Sorry, I am quite a bit disappointed. Max |
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Post by Curn on Oct 14, 2013 23:58:52 GMT -5
I have neither, but someone posted a group photo over on Train Board that shows these differences. The challenger appears to have more detail, or more exaggerated detail. linkI was looking into the rear steam chests not being connected to the steam pipe. It appears this is a modelling compromise also on the Marklin HO scale Big Boy and the Athearn N scale Big Boy. I'm sure Rob or Hans will chime in about this, but it was probably a necessary compromise to get the locomotive to run around 245 mm radius curves. |
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max63
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Post by max63 on Oct 15, 2013 15:30:59 GMT -5
Hi I wil try to post some pictures, this will explain things better. Max Attachments:
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Post by davestubbs on Oct 16, 2013 0:03:31 GMT -5
Good eye Max, pulled mine out to take a look. Builder missed a piece for sure. I'll have to bond on a piece. As far as detail goes more detail = more money and at 2K a piece I will be a little more forgiving. I guess we could wait for Marklin to make one, but I would like to run it in my lifetime. I don't mean to say your points aren't valid because they are. But in the Z world of F7s, Mike's, and GP's My Big Boy pulling 50 PFE reefers ALWAYS puts a smile on my face. I do hope Rob will look into your suggestions. The missing pipe would be an easy fix before paint. Finger prints in the paint is unacceptable at $2000 but with such small production numbers it might be cheeper to scrap the engine than have to repaint it with paint removal and paint setup. I do want to end on a positive note for the AZL guys and say keep up the good work if not for your efforts in z I would have gone to N scale long ago. Can't wait to see what the next New Brass engine will be.
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max63
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Post by max63 on Oct 16, 2013 2:39:45 GMT -5
I understand fully the problems that are related to the production. In fact Rob(A) and Bob(K) and especially Hans are not to be envied, but have to be thanked for their engagement. I agree fully with the final statements in the China Hong Kong visit thread. Still it is disappointing. A quick search in Google pictures revealed this drawing and this gives me a suspicion: why search for a long time as a CAD designer, if after 5 seconds you have a decent drawing, you do not want to question. Look here www.wig-wag-trains.com/Athearn-Pages/Athearn%20Pics/Locomotives/4-8-8-4/11825_UP_BIG.JPGYou see the missing pipe connection? I am for sure the designer used this one as a reference help. All the details match. Not only the feeder steam pipe is missing, but the exhaust pipe that is more in the inside, is not connected as well, it ends in nowhere land. It IS connected in the challenger. This one would have been a better drawing but needs more time to find and is not labeled "Athearn" that gives it an official touch. www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/information/dimensions/bigboy-schematic-composite.jpgMax |
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Post by markm on Oct 16, 2013 10:40:13 GMT -5
Max,
I don't know the AZL design process, but as a former CAD guy, I can make a couple of comments.
First, neither drawing you've posted begins to be useful for a CAD designer. There is a great deal of 3D information that simply unavailable. Addionally, the CAD designer has to design to the production process they're using. That's why we have baseball size rivets on some Z scale designs. Also, since Athearn has the same disconnected pipe in N, I have to wonder whether its just a mechanical limitation of the smaller scales.
Additionally, CAD designers can be arrogant SOBs about their design work. The NASG convention car for Sacramento has been 3 years in the making. While there as a number of reasons the car is late, one of them is that the original CAD designer refused to make corrections to the design to match the prototype because he felt it was good enough.
One other possibility, if the Athearn unit was produced in China is that the designer directly copied the Athearn. Its frequently forgotten that China is still a Communist country and that intellectual properties belong to the "people."
I don't own a Big Boy myself as it doesn't fit into my modeling plans, but it seems to do a pretty good job of looking like to Big Boy I saw in 1999.
Mark
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Post by Rob Albritton on Oct 17, 2013 13:48:19 GMT -5
I understand fully the problems that are related to the production. In fact Rob(A) and Bob(K) and especially Hans are not to be envied, but have to be thanked for their engagement. I agree fully with the final statements in the China Hong Kong visit thread. Still it is disappointing. Hi Max, I have to admit, I was not the lead on the Big Boy project, so I just don't know that much about it. It is a good question for Hans! Best, -Rob(A) AZL (Master of Heavyweights, PS2, Containers, Colors, Mikado mechanical operation, Tank cars, Auto racks, DCC, Diesel mechanical operations, Centerbeams, and janitorial services) |
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max63
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Post by max63 on Oct 26, 2013 23:31:39 GMT -5
Thank you Rob
I am on the road and checked quickli this thread. Not much reactions so far. Am I the only one - although as said before I do not count rivets :-)
Max
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Post by gerd on Oct 26, 2013 23:45:56 GMT -5
Max,
I don't own any of those locos but have temp. both in my possession. I can confirm all your observations, the Challenger is of a much better build, the casting and details are sharper. I have compared both to my Aijn built GS-3 too with the same result, the Challenger is of the same , high quality, the Bigboy is not in the same class. Interesting too is the fact the plastic Mikados for $200 have a higher detailed running gear in comparison.
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Post by Hans Riddervold (AZL) on Oct 27, 2013 15:08:04 GMT -5
Have to admit that some details snuck under my radar. At the end of the design process focus was on other shortcomings, that ended up being fixed. Yes, we have a second run coming, but I think it is too late to do any changes.
Originally we were going to use the same company that produced our Challenger, but the cost was out of hand. We would have had to charge the double. But, by having a Chinese brass manufacturer, we have been able to continue with brass. We came very close to end our brass production.
If we need to omit or change details in future runs, they will be communicated.
Sincerely, Hans
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Post by boxcarwilly on Oct 30, 2013 13:13:10 GMT -5
Although I don't won any of these engines as they do not fit into the theme of my layout, I can understand what is happening here. As an designer from another model railroading company once told me, "Sometimes you have to sacrifice detail and realism for functionality." Perhaps that was the case here. Is it possible that the missing or unconnected pieces would have rendered the finished product unworkable if they had been included? I'm just throwing that out for argument. It is true that on larger versions of this model, these pieces would not hinder the operation of the product because of the size involved since larger scales tend to provide larger areas to include things that have to be eliminated or redesigned in our scale. It's an unfortunate fact. What also is unfortunate is that what is usually dropped sometimes turns out to be something so obvious, that it stands out like a sore thumb. I've looked at this model several times and never would have known what was missing or disconnected until it was talked about in this thread. To the untrained eye, things like this don't really matter, but to the purist in most of us, it does. When you boil it all down when it came to design versus functionality, compromises had to be made. I guess someone somewhere made the wrong choices. But what do I know. I think it looks OK as it is but then, I'm not a purist.
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max63
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Post by max63 on Nov 6, 2013 12:15:49 GMT -5
Hi Hans
Thanks for giving some comments. I guessed it happened the way you explained it, but its nice to be reassured.
And @ gerd
Quite right with the Mikados, I don't own one myself but had a chance to look at one at a friends place. Actually we had hopped for a bit better running properties, but the price is unbeatable.
Max
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