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Post by cardingtonjunction on Aug 17, 2020 13:39:12 GMT -5
I have no experience with AZL products (sorry) so forgive my ignorance. I also looked for answers and didn't find anything so forgive me if this has been covered before...
Question 1:
Are all AZL locomotive wheel sets within a truck the same regardless of the locomotive or is there gearing differences?
Question 2:
IF I wanted to eliminate traction tires on a locomotive, specifically the RS3, could I buy a spare set of trucks for the RS3 or possibly a 3 axle truck for different locomotive and just swap out traction tire wheel sets on the RS3 for non traction tire wheel sets?
Question 3:
If this is feasible, are just wheel sets available?
I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a couple of RS3's and I want to know what my options are if I decide I don't want/like traction tires.
Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.
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Post by ztrack on Aug 17, 2020 18:23:53 GMT -5
I am not sure about the 1st question. The RS run utilizes two different trucks that are completely new to Z scale. It is quite possible the gearing in the wheel sets are very different then those used in other trucks.
Sorry AZL does not offer the wheels separately. We do offer trucks as a spare part, but not for the RS series.
Rob
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 17, 2020 19:11:06 GMT -5
Spare trucks for the RS series have been ordered, but not yet delivered from the factory.
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Post by cardingtonjunction on Aug 23, 2020 10:05:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the information however, I still have questions.
It is my understanding there is one traction tire per truck on the RS Series.
So, can the wheel sets WITHIN the new RS Series trucks be swapped? In other words, can I take a NON traction tire wheel set from an RS Series truck and use it to replace the traction tire wheel set to eliminate traction tires completely from the locomotive?
That is what I am trying to accomplish.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 23, 2020 10:11:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the information however, I still have questions. It is my understanding there is one traction tire per truck on the RS Series. So, can the wheel sets WITHIN the new RS Series trucks be swapped? In other words, can I take a NON traction tire wheel set from an RS Series truck and use it to replace the traction tire wheel set to eliminate traction tires completely from the locomotive? That is what I am trying to accomplish. Yes. That should work. But, out of curiosity, what is your fear of traction tires? I admit that many years ago when I first heard of the idea I had a natural dislike of the concept. But without leading the witness, I’m wondering what it is about a traction tire that makes you cringe?
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Post by husafreak on Aug 23, 2020 21:30:00 GMT -5
I'd like to know too as my traction tire equipped locos are much better at pulling loads and negotiating track imperfections than my non traction tire (Marklin) loco's. I much prefer them. But maybe years from now (?) when they need replacing I'll feel differently. That's the only drawback I can think of.
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Post by tjdreams on Aug 24, 2020 14:30:06 GMT -5
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Post by BAZman on Aug 25, 2020 1:42:40 GMT -5
I can understand the concerns, but I would like to try and solve the turnout focus first. In reality, you likely won't need the traction tire(s) as Switching trains aren't that long and most home layouts don't have the longer trackage.
It is said that there is sporadic running issues and a little cleaning is in order, making for a somewhat improvement. Yes, track does need some cleaning but honestly, I find both loco wheels and truck pickups (4 to a loco, each axle to the side frames, frame to the chassis pickup, pickup to the frame). HOWEVER, if the loco runs fine, around-and-around the layout (excluding turnouts), then there is either a truck, axle on the loco or, the turnouts.
Here is how to test an axle or truck: put a thin, narrow strip of tape across one rail and run the loco around. If the loco stalls, its that axle. A wider strip for 2 axles on same rail and a both rails to determine if that truck IS the power one and the one WITHOUT tape is the bad one.
The various turnout manufacturers have differing designs. The two main components are the Frog and the Points. The Exit rails are also part of it, I'll get into that in a moment.
MTL and Rokuhan use the same principle, a single solid swinging plate (like the Kato for the N scalers). This plate, about 1-1/4 (3cm) in length, gets its power from 2 locations: the internal mechanics of the the Frog power routing and, tension against the Outer Stock rails. At the frog end, they are literally sitting on the Frog power metal. The points wobble some, dirt, dust, track cleaning fluids (I'll tell you a story about Mr. Dave at the end), efficacy of the switch throw (manual or electrics), etc. create electrical reliability in a turnout. I can tell you the hassles we have had on the 2nd generation MTL's when they restarted (parts missing inside, etc.) The frog interior parts rotate, make contact to various track parts and such. Get an analog volt-ohm meter (the Ohms mode will drive more current for a better continuity), a Digital DVM in Continuity mode or better use an LED tester which has reasonable current. Connect 3 pieces to each part of the turnout (or use the installed on your layout. Clip on lead of the Ohm/Continuity/Test to one rail off the turnout. Test each piece of the turnout and beyond. Do the same for the Frog rails, especially the exit rails. Some issues are the Power Routing settings or, the contacts of the Exit Rails to the Frog. This is an issue if you use an insulated joiner between to turnouts in a crossover. Make sure that test the points for pick too.
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Post by cardingtonjunction on Aug 25, 2020 13:40:27 GMT -5
I thought I already replied to the last post but I don't see it so here goes again!
First off, thanks to everybody for the replies, suggestions and tips!!
Second, the Train Board thread was started by me looking for the same answers under a different name.
Third, I have no turnout issues presently with my MTL locos & MTL turnouts, but I have in the past. That requires a thorough cleaning of the tracks and loco to resolve which is a royal pain on this section of layout because of the number of cars I have on this train.
I have to say that I am not a fan of traction tires in any scale but particularly Z scale because of the finickiness of Z scale locos in regards to power pick-up. Therefore, I wanted to know if there is a "professional" way to get rid of them other than just pulling the rubber off which isn't a satisfactory solution to me.
I know that swapping wheel sets between trucks is an option with MTL so I was hoping to buy a couple of RS3's and some spare trucks as an insurance policy against possible power pick-up issues and just eliminate the traction tires from the get-go.
So far, I still don't know if swapping an AZL RS3 traction tire wheel set with a RS3 or other loco NON-traction tire wheel set is feasible so I am reluctant to take the plunge and spend $$$$ on a couple of AZL RS3's.
As far pulling power goes, I add weight to my locos where I can fit it and to be honest, I rather buy another loco or two and run doubles & triples if need be to overcome issues. However, pulling 40+ cars (all metal wheels) on my layout right now is no problem without traction tires so I just don't see a need.
To me it's just another spare part that may or may not be available years from now and tiny rubber O-rings isn't something I want to stock up on...just in case.
Thanks again all for the insight!
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Post by modelwarships on Aug 25, 2020 13:54:07 GMT -5
Waiting for the story!
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Post by BAZman on Aug 25, 2020 23:04:11 GMT -5
Ooooh early on, Mr Dave came over to ask me why he had some intermittent running on some older marklin turnouts (his entire award winning modules are marklin track based). As I approached, he was squirting a good couple of streams of blue at a turnout and rubbing a track cleaner on a long stick. He showed me a couple of the problem turnouts in the near area. Yeow! Easy clue: lots of crud in the frog lifting contacts! The contacts were being held down so that when the wheel flange ran through, it could not make contact.
I got some of my cleaner, a dental pick and some paper towels to leach up the crud, freeing the the contact to move well enough. The rest of the show went well !
Moral of the story is many, er, most really do not know how many of special tracks work, such as turnouts, crossovers, crossings, the road crossing gates, etc. They just run trains.
The marklin turnouts are amazing. Designed in 1970, they are ingenious. They solved the problem of frog polarity by using a plastic frog surrounded by floating contacts to the loco wheel flange. Today, 50 years later, they are DCC friendly (also the Atlas) but not the MTL or Rokuhan.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 0:43:21 GMT -5
About Rokuhan and DCC : In the past I saw some pictures of Rokuhan turnouts really DESTROYED by too high current, in case of a short circuit due to a "wrong" position ; so, since I don't use DCC and my whole electronics are DIY, I built a current limiter (about 90 mA) : it is the maximum needed by my engines, so if the turnouts survive to this, they will survive in case of a short circuit, too.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Aug 26, 2020 10:31:12 GMT -5
So far, I still don't know if swapping an AZL RS3 traction tire wheel set with a RS3 or other loco NON-traction tire wheel set is feasible so I am reluctant to take the plunge and spend $$$$ on a couple of AZL RS3's. It is physically possible to swap a full axle / wheel within the RS truck design. Yes you can swap an axle with a traction tire for one that does not have a tire. We have over 10 years experience with traction tires. our findings are: 1) They do NOT wear out quickly. We ordered 100 extra tires for one run of locomotives. So far we have sold something like 10 extra tires for a run of over 3000 locomotives. I also run locomotives at shows for hours on end - I've never replaced one. 2) Traction tires do NOT have a serious impact on electrical pickup. The tires are offset left right and front back, so there is always at least two points of electrical pick up for each side - even when going over turnouts. More Z scale issues electrical are caused by dirty wheels than anything else - this includes your rolling stock! I cannot tell you how many times I've visited people who are cleaning track like mad, only to look at their locomotives that have solid dirt wrapped around every single wheel. 2 minutes with any cotton material cleaning the wheels has the trains running perfectly. 3) Our AZL locomotives have enough weight to pull up to 100 cars on a level surface with a single loco. I've seen it at shows many times. How? Traction tires. Phew! Hope that helps! -Rob A. AZL
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Post by cardingtonjunction on Aug 26, 2020 12:02:10 GMT -5
Rob:
That helps a lot, thanks!!
Will other loco wheel sets work as replacements within the RS3 truck or do I have to wait for the RS3 trucks to be delivered?
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Post by domi on Aug 29, 2020 8:49:50 GMT -5
I don't want to put one more coin in the juke-box but I mostly agree with cardingtonjunction's concerns. Please don't make me say what I've not said. I love AZL locomotives and I'll continue to promote them on the various websites I'm wandering on. But I must admit myself I'm not fond at all of the traction tire technology. If I had a simple way to remove traction tire-equipped axles on my AZL locos, I would do it. And I'd add weight as well. My consideration comes from comparing two 4-axle locomotives brands, AZL GP38-2 and MTL GP35. Here and there the first one can stall at low speed due to some lack of juice, where the second one (8 wheels fully catching up juice) proceeds flawlessly at 3 scale mph (as I'm mostly a switching man my locos are far more turtles than jackrabbits considering the way I run them). On any future loco model I would be ready to purchase non-tire equipped spare trucks, even if that costs me 40 or 60 more bucks.. Dom
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