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Post by trainguy on Feb 16, 2023 12:07:40 GMT -5
I am still having problems with the Rokuhan 110mm turnouts causing derailments. I will summarize where I am. I now have five locomotives, 2ea MTL F7 A&B units, 1ea MTL GP-9, 2ea AZL ALCO RS3, all experience the same constant issue with derailments. I started ZScale in mid December 2022, all Rokuhan track and accessories were purchased new so items are two months old. I have a total of seven turnouts, 2ea RH and 5ea LH. Three of the LH turnouts are the problem. The turnouts that cause issues have been located to the switch yard which is a flat area and has at least one 110mm straight track section before the turnout. All locomotives can go through the turnouts in a straight direction, the problem always occurs, in this case, a left hand turn. Somehow the locomotives front leading wheel knifes between the rail and moving switch point rail. I have looked at these turnouts and I cannot see any distinguishable difference between one’s that operate well and the three that are a constant problem. When I strum the operable switch point rail it snaps back like correctly operating turnouts. Visual overhead observation, the switch point rail looks tight to the main rail. If you look at the backside of the turnout there are a total of nine exposed screws. The five small screws gain access to the internals. The four larger screws seem like the could be fore adjustments, but I could not find any information on these turnouts. I tried tightening the screw securing the pivot point of the switch point rail thinking this would keep it more stable and level? This did not have any positive effect. Three of the five LH turnouts are the problem. I don’t know if possibly there was a manufacturing tolerance issue? Everything I have purchased has been with ZScale monster, his way to deal with problems is to not respond. I believe that Rob, Z Track, has stated in other threads that they are the sole distributor of Rokuhan products in the USA. If you read this post, suggest what I should do next. I will be happy to send the turnouts to you for evaluation.
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Post by BAZman on Feb 16, 2023 13:28:02 GMT -5
Please post a track plan, it’s very difficult to imagine what we are to be seeing. Do the locos still derail if turned around, then run the same direction? You mentioned A-B. Do both derail? Does the lead A not derail if the B is disconnected? Does the B derail, by itself? Do the MTL coupler ‘air hose’ clear all of the turnout components? (the should be a credit card above) Is your layout level ( not fighting gravity to one side/corner?
Did you check the MTL wheel gauge, as I recommended? If the flange touch the opposing sides, the are clear out of gauge.
Do you have a camera or phone that has Slow Motion? Good light and proper focus image could help us. Or, drive it up Slowly to just before the points and stop. Take a clear focus zoomed image ( you don’t have to super zoom, just clear). The do the SloMo mode video when the locomotive is SLOWLY driving through.
You could also try pushing the loco thru while watching with camera zoom or magnifying glass. It’s not the same as running as there now is drag on the trucks, forcing them to abnormal positions but might help.
Also, it may not be the point on Stockrail (points thrown against the outer rail. The Frog or Guard or Wing rails maybe “coercing” the truck too. So look there too. There are a lot of gaps and a LOT of elevation changes in their turnouts.
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Post by dazed on Feb 16, 2023 13:43:45 GMT -5
1. As mentioned in the previous topic you posted, it is probably going to be difficult to troubleshoot this further without good photos and/or video of what is happening. 2. The screws aren't for adjustment. There are two functions for the screws on the bottom: assembly, and adjusting the power routing behavior. If you bought these new, you should have an instruction booklet that covers this. If not I think the instructions are also on Rokuhan's site, and if not let me know...I think I scanned them to PDF and can post that here. 3. I feel like this is a "hopping" vs "knifing" issue, from what I know of Rokuhan turnouts. I does seem very unlikely that it would knife through given the notches. Lightly sand all of the areas around the point of the derailments to make sure there isn't any obvious burrs on the rails or plastic mold artifacts on the ties or inside guardrails, something like that. I've seen some folks remove those inside plastic guardrails altogether, (but I'm not advising that) but they could be thicker than normal (Friday afternoon batch) and need to be filed down some on the sides or tops. There would have to be something else out of whack for those to really even matter, but just reaching for things I guess. Also obvious things like check to make sure the rail joiners immediately before the derailment site are properly seated and the rail tops are flush. 4. I can't recall but is the track secured? Meaning, as the loco travels over does the track itself heave/bounce or otherwise have noticeable vertical movement? The fact that when you push on the manual control lever that the issue goes away makes me think you may also be securing the turnout inadvertently to keep it from moving excessively. Again, just a thought.
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Post by trainguy on Feb 16, 2023 18:24:22 GMT -5
I have tried to upload a single picture and says the file is too large. I will try to figure out how this works, the post a picture of the track layout and a short video of the locomotive derailing. As said by dazed, I do also believe it hops over the switch point rail. I used a Dremel disc only, not the power unit to try to de burr the switch point rail with no change. All locomotives derail with the front trucks, the rear do not make it to the point of derailment. The turnouts causing the issue we’re first installed elsewhere in the layout (siding on each loop), discarded at that point and kept for the yard because they wouldn’t work. The turnout leading to the yard works fine. My wife is trying to figure out how to reduce the picture file size
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Post by zscalehobo on Feb 17, 2023 0:36:57 GMT -5
Are you using c007 blocks? How are those wired into your layout?
Are the locos actually coming off the tracks or are you only seeing your RC-03 LED's shutting off? I've had lots of issues with Rokuhan controllers and MTL locos SD40 and especially the MTL F7. It's usually a locomotive problem. The RS having issues comes as a surprise.
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zosorailways
Engineer
I mean base board appearance detailing and such
Posts: 218
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Post by zosorailways on Feb 17, 2023 8:16:31 GMT -5
I have also had derailments with my newly purchased Rokuhan R039 110mm Left Hand Turnout. And it also completely stopped working. Thought it was by my fault (still entirely unsure that is the case...) cause I had removed the Power to the switch while the transformer was still on So I just thought that because of that, i just burned it out. But had mistakenly did the same with 1 or 2 others (those are 55mm turnouts) before realizing that power was still on (have caught on* Not to do any track maintenance while power is still connected, *beginner) Those other 55mm turnouts still work fine and didn't burnout cause I mistakenly removed/inserted from transformer with power on.
With my non working newly purchased (less than 2 weeks ago) Even with manual switching 99% of my (not very often) derailments happen with the R039 LH turnout unless I actually hold the manual switch until all cars pass said switch.
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Post by zscalehobo on Feb 17, 2023 11:36:19 GMT -5
Are you using c007 blocks? How are those wired into your layout? Someone just posted on FB regarding a similar issue: If you are using the Rokuhan power blocks, I have experienced that turnouts will not work within that block. I had to have all turnouts powered by a direct line from the controller. I also found the reverse on the power block does not change the polarity within the block
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Post by ztrack on Feb 18, 2023 8:30:23 GMT -5
I am examining your photo and I think Frank may be on to something. You are using 2 controllers. So you have two sections of the layout that work independent of each other. I can't really tell from the photo, but it appears you have 2 loops, an outer loop with the yard, and an inner loop with a siding. I would expect the controller for the inner loop to have connections for 2 turnouts. I would then expect the controller for the outer loop with the yard to have connection for five turnouts. But it appears the controller for the outer loop has 2 turnouts connected to it. The controller for the inner loop shows 3 turnouts. If you mix and match the controllers to the loops, you will have electric issues with the turnouts. Make sure the turnouts are isolated to the loop of track / controller that operates it.
I think it is time to get back to basics. There is too much going on that could be a factor. Are the turnouts easily removed from the layout? If so, here is what I would do.
Try removing the C007 blocks. I can't figure out where they fit in. You don't need to use them for yard tracks since the turnouts are power routed.
- Check your blocks and make sure the track sections are isolated between the controllers. - Remove the C007s - Verify that the turnouts are being operated by the controller for that section / loop of track
You mentioned the you have used some of the turnouts previously, and removed them. Make sure these turnouts are flat and level. You can bow them in the process. Also check the rails. They can bend easily. This may actually be the cause of some of your issues. To troubleshoot the individual turnout, try the following:
- Pull out the turnout and connect to straight sections of track on each side. Then I recommend removing one of the RC03s and connect the turnout to it, with nothing else connected to the controller. Once this setup is isolated, test if the turnout is working or not. - If it is, then examine the rail alignment at the entrance of the switch. All should be tight - Finally test run your locos through it.
Let us know what you find.
The layout does look great!
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Post by trainguy on Feb 18, 2023 10:05:46 GMT -5
I never could upload a video to this forum. I have uploaded videos and pictures on Facebook- ZScale model trains on 2-18 about 9am. It is an open page, you have to be a member to comment. Brad Boyer
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 10:06:37 GMT -5
Normally the coils of the turnouts have no common connection with the rails ... So the mixing should not cause issues ! First You should perhaps test the output voltage (supply to the controllers) with a multimeter ; I am afraid that some turnouts are near of a "limit" concerning voltage ; and not try to connect more than 2 turnouts in parallel, I think that the Rokuhan supply does not provide more current ; one thing is sure : 9V are NOT enough. So I will use a 12V supply (Idle 12.5V) and put 4 power diodes (10A ! ) in series with the input of my (own : Kato system) controller ; this should result in about 9.2 to 10.1 V, and remove one diode at a time, raising the remaining voltage stepwise, until I get a safe operation (without the diodes I "shot" a turnout in the past).
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Post by trainguy on Feb 18, 2023 12:01:12 GMT -5
A person on Facebook may have solved my problem with the turnouts. He suggested sliding/pushing the straight rail so the it accepts the switch point rail in the notch as designed. I did this with one turnout and seems to have solved the issue. Either this is a manufacturing problem or possibly when engaging the track sections the rail gets moved. I will redo the turnouts and proceed onward. Thanks for everyone’s help. Brad Boyer
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Post by BAZman on Feb 18, 2023 13:28:28 GMT -5
😉
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Post by trainguy on Feb 19, 2023 8:41:54 GMT -5
I spoke too quickly on the possible fix for the turnouts, by pushing on the straight rail it did work for a short time after. I suppose the plastic allowed some stretching but then soon after found it’s original position now causing constant derailments. A second turnout rail broke loose while pushing. Frank Daniels, ZScale Hobo, got involved after seeing my Facebook post. I planned to purchase replacements through him and asked that he test the turnouts prior to shipping. He found that he could find only one LH turnout in his inventory that worked. He has escalated the problem to the distributor. I assume like I thought there is manufacturing tolerance issue. He did confirm the RH turnouts he tested work properly. Thanks everyone for your help. I assume the distributor will provide details and when replacements are available Brad Boyer
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Post by BAZman on Feb 19, 2023 13:04:08 GMT -5
Great! But we still do not clearly know the failure mechanics. There are multiple pieces the truck rolls through, adding and removing pressure and tension. I suggest placing a turnout on an eye-height shelf-end, with the points facing you. Add a 110 piece ( so you can go back & forth. Place a camera at the end of the track and manually focus on the points. Place lighting to shine under the trucks. Record a Slow/High speed (whatever your phone/camera calls it) and run the loco slow YOU can see it and the camera too.
The points are the obvious piece, but it is mounted to others.
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Post by trainguy on Feb 19, 2023 13:54:50 GMT -5
I don’t know how to link it but Frank Daniels, ZScale Hobo, sent me a YouTube 11 second video of his locomotive jumping in one of his new but malfunctioning LH turnouts. I will contact him and see if he can post the link for you. I’m quite sure this is not a customer fixable problem but a manufacturing problem.. It seems to be confined to newer stock LH110mm Rokuhan turnouts.Brad Boyer
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