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Post by Philthy on Jun 18, 2022 21:12:15 GMT -5
Hello folks, I'm lookin for some help here as I have absolutely no friggin clue what I've doin. My son loves trains and I've promised him that we'd get into it together. Well, that time is now, and unfortunately I'm up to my brow in questions and confusion.
He is young (4) and small (but so is the amount of space we have to work with), so I'm worried he might accidentally damage the train. I don't care if the scenery gets botched just the train. So first question would be:
1.) How rugged are Z-Scale trains?
Next, I don't want a simple loop, although it's a start and we can expand.. I've saved up a bit of $schmackos$ for this project and I want to make something that can create some wonder. All the bells and whistles (literally cause... DCC). With him being young, I need the system to be user friendly and simple. For this I've been seeing the Digitrax Zephyr Express. To be honest, it looks perfect minus one small thing that I read in the description. Smallest scale it goes down to is N-Scale. Googling the answer has brought me to either; terms I don't understand, or non conclusive results.
2.) What do I need in order to run Z-Scale reliably with a Digitrax Zephyr Express? As in, exact product models (links would be helpful)? Maybe a how to guide as well? How many Z-scale engines could I run? How much track could I have (in feet roughly) before it needs more power?
Looking through the ALZ website for train engines and cars has been entertaining, however on the train engine description is says "DCC drop in ready for Digitrax", which I have no clue what that means.
3.) Can you explain what "DCC drop in ready" means? Also, if it means I have to buy something else to make it work with a DCC system, does that mean it won't work with a DC system after I *convert?* it? In the event this is all to complicated for my smooth brained self and need something simpler.
Lastly, I've been looking at building terrain. Watching videos, and looking up all sorts of people's DIY online tutorials. I saw one fella from I believe the UK had a running water system... seems intuitive that you wouldn't want that cause of a short (but boy oh boy doesn't that sound aesthetically pleasing)?
4.) Any products you would never use again. Mistakes you've made that you would tell others to steer clear from and avoid like the plague. As well as the opposite. Products you just can't live with out?
Also... depending on how this goes and I might try the running water thing lol.
Thank you so much for your time. I've combed through these threads over the last several hours an either didn't understand what I was reading or didn't get the answers I needed.
-Phil
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Post by BAZman on Jun 18, 2022 23:52:56 GMT -5
Z? 4 yrs? NO. $100 for one DC loco model but really $150-$200+ EACH. Then, there is the Power pack $25-$50.
DCC? $200 to start with, then Adding a $50 DCC circuit board in the loco is done by you, removing the shell, pulling out the present DC board and inserting the DCC board (it is not easy and gotchas). And you only need DCC when you want to run *several* locos, at the same time, not one.
You can run as much track as you want, same as DC, but you really need to put another power connection within ~10' (at worse 5' *if* you have a lot of track connections. In reality, you can run any layout with one connection (the locomotives draw very little power nowadays, it is that DCC shorts [derailments] need a circuit breaker and it doesn't work well with a lot of track connections). DCC *always* has power on the track. If a Loco or car derails (especially on a Turnout/Switch) will melt parts.
Drop, VERY likely will not run. They are finicky already. Your grandsons dexterity and cognitive skill will be challenged trying to get the loco and car wheels on the track (and stay on it).
Rokuhan has a more toy like version (Shorty's) that would be a little more durable but realistically, place them on the track has the same challenge. It runs from 2 AA's so a bit cheaper but still, all of the Z items (Track, etc.) is going to be pricey, compared to say N scale at at least 1/2 the price.
I would *Highly* suggest an N or even HO Starter set.
It will truly be a challenge in Z, to be honest. But I like your passion.
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Post by Philthy on Jun 19, 2022 0:36:50 GMT -5
Alright. A bit of background. My son is autistic and is incredibly careful and particular with similar things. (Legos and other things, the kid's a wiz) I figured the trains would be fragile, but had to ask just in case something happens.
When you say power pack, what do you mean?
I do plan on having maybe 3 trains running simultaneously max on the table at any given time. Definitely 2 but max 3.
Is the Digitrax Zephyr Express compatible with Z-Scale?
What is the process of modifying the engine to be dcc compatible? Once I modify it can it still be used on a DC track? Is the circuit board to change the engine to DCC the same for every engine?
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Post by ptitrainrouge on Jun 19, 2022 2:04:15 GMT -5
I agree that Z scale is not for a 4 year boy,even talented, and I will not recommand for adult newbies (try first N scale or HO scale) it is much more challenging that lego or any kid item.
but some answers
Rokuhan is the best track system for a rookie (at any ages), no pb. very reliable
Some AZL locos can accept drop in decoders (special for AZL Z) from Digitrax, but not all the locos (you have to check it) that means, you have to remove the shell of the loco, then , remove the DC electronic board , then install the DCC electronic board. Here is a video explaining how (not the same for all locomotives) have a look here (and in fact you need to file a bit the contact of the dcc board to the frame, because they are too thick)
and here
Some locos do not accept drop in decoders and you must install other small decoders by soldering (not easy, I do not have the skill to do that)
To run a DCC loco you need a DCC system like the zephir,
you need to read carefuly the explanations given by Digitrax to give an adress to your loco in the system, and how to run your system it is not totaly friendly user. (I always need to read the explanations for adressing, cv modification,...)
If I remember well the zephyr delivers 14v , It works with AZL Z , but it is safer to run at 12 v, so install a voltage reducer between the zephyr and the tracks. Marklin Z needs 9 or 10v.
a DCC loco will run on DC too, but do not try the contrary: you will frie your loco.
for DC you need a DC Power pack delivering 12v (or more , with a voltage reducer) to run 2 or 3 trains at the same time DC is possible but much more easy if the trains are not on the same track, so several power packs and several connection (one for each track loop)
Z scale needs maintenance (cleanning of the track and wheels) to run well: not for a kid in any way. the rolling stock is very fragile, so manipulating needs a lot of attention.
if your aim is to do Z scale your self, and show to your kid, that s ok after some basic learning for you (that you can have on this forum)
If you want to put your kid alone in front of the Z scale layout: NO
N scale or HO scale is a good advice
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Post by Philthy on Jun 19, 2022 2:30:36 GMT -5
ptitrainrougeThank you for taking the time to answer. My son will be supervised when it is play time. Also, I have no issue learning to clean and care for the model train and passing it to my son. The goal of this project is to bond with him, not a one time thing but something we can spend time doing together. Hopefully over multiple years, however, I have a feeling he will eventually cut me out of this as he does with all his hobbies. His brain works overtime compared to mine or anyone else's thats like us. I appreciate the concern from both you and the other person, and I understand that you both are trying to save me from financial hard ship. I've chosen Z-Scale for 3 main reasons. The smaller the better due to not having a lot of space, something that will be challenging for both of us that we can bond over, and something that I can use as a lesson builder over time but speaks to him in a way his brain can process it and apply it to real life. I am looking for the "how to", not the "why I should not". I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I'd prefer to stay on topic of the questions with out including my sons capabilities or age. (Not to say that either of you or anyone else that reads this is going to be targeting him or has targeted him. I believe you're warning me for good reason.) My son and I will tackle this Z-Scale hill to stand and fight on. Lol. On to the actual subject and the information you provided. The process of plugging in a DCC chip seems easy enough and I'll stay away from the solder. www.azldirect.com/63500-4This is the engine I am wanting to get for him. It says it's DCC drop in ready, however, when I go to the Digitrax website and use the "decoder selector" function, the model of train does not show up. I'm not sure the proper one to use. Any helpful tips? I'll stay away from the older conversions and stick to the newer ready models. www.digitrax.com/products/universal-panel-ir-radio-receivers/up6z/This is the piece of tech I need to make the Digitrax Zephyr Express work with z scale, correct? What is a power pack as the other person stated? Thank you again for your help and concern.
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Post by ptitrainrouge on Jun 19, 2022 5:21:23 GMT -5
yes it is the voltage reducer that you need
i do not have this particular loco , but the DZ123Z0 Decoder fits well for these locos This 2 function FX3 decoder is designed to fit AZL locomotives: and 63500 is in the list below
• 61000 • 62000 • 62100 • 62400 • 62500 • 62600 • 62900 • 63000 • 63100 • 63200 • 63500 • 64600
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Post by Philthy on Jun 19, 2022 5:36:29 GMT -5
Thank you so much.
So I guess all I need is a firm slap on the wrist for people telling me not to mix electric model trains and real running water and we'll be set.
Happy Father's day for those of you that are!
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Post by Philthy on Jun 19, 2022 6:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by ptitrainrouge on Jun 19, 2022 9:52:09 GMT -5
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Post by markm on Jun 19, 2022 11:07:56 GMT -5
This thread sure moved fast. Here’s a site that may help answer some questions: guidetozscale.com/It’s very dated but the fundamentals are the same. A secret about Z is that it’s a rather oral tradition and not well documented in the traditional sense. So you have to search the forums. Checkout TrainBoard if you haven’t already. The DCC installation video (GP30) is the same for just about all AZL locomotives. Digitrax and TCS have not kept up their listing. Nearly all the 5 digit model number locomotives work the same They also have 12V motors. Getting back to the original post… While I would suggest a larger “first scale”, only you can decide what’s best with you son. I got my first trains at 2 1/2, maintaining my locomotives at 4 and my first layout at 6, so I don’t have a problem starting young. My personal experience is that HO & N scale break just as easy as Z on a concrete floor, just easier to fix. AZL locomotives are fragile in part to the improvements they’ve made in the details applied. I’d suggest a first locomotive like the F59, E and F series. They have a minimum of fragile applied details. The E & F series take the drop-in decoders. The F59 has to use a wired decoder. The term “drop-in” means you don’t have to wire anything. If you browse the posts here there have been issues with these decoders, all rectifiable. As a result, with the PA locomotives it appears AZL may be using a new design in the future. Finally, while it’s great you’re asking about DCC, I would advice having a small oval running DC. All locomotives arrive in DC and a small oval is good to check out the locomotive before DCCing it. And keep asking questions. Hope this helps, Mark
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Post by tjdreams on Jun 19, 2022 11:48:53 GMT -5
Z scale and a Autistic 4 year old! Now that's going to be one hell of a challenge. But if your wanting to tackle it I will try and answer your questions. 1.) How rugged are Z-Scale trains? Rugged Not at all, They are fragile. Simply Picking one up the wrong way can brake the handrails and detail parts or bend the drive rods which will prevent a steam loco from running. One drop from table height to a hard floor Usually results in broken parts. IE Couplers, steps, trucks, and wheel sets knocked loose and sent flying into never never land which = (hours spent on your hands and knees crawling around on the floor with a magnifying glass trying to find the missing parts) Passenger and freight cars can usually be repaired well enough to run again if you can find all the parts, But Locomotives well they don't tend to do so well. One hard hit and/or landing the wrong way and Your loco may never run again. Note: spare parts for some loco's are not easy to find. 2.) What do I need in order to run Z-Scale reliably with a Digitrax Zephyr Express? The Digitrax Zephyr DCS-52 will work but you will need to get the Digitrax UP6Z to reduce the track voltage for Z scale Locomotives. www.digitrax.com/products/universal-panel-ir-radio-receivers/up6z/Shop around to find the best prices The voltage needed to run the trains Varies Depending on which Locomotives you intend to run. Most Marklin locomotives run on 8 to 10 volts some of the newest models with "can" or "Bell Shaped Motors" can handle 12 volts Micro Trains locomotives were designed to run on 8 to 10 volts American Z lines Locomotives If it has a 4 digit part # it has a 8 volt motor in it if it has a 5 digit part Number it has a 12 volt motor in it. For best results and to prevent voiding warranty's you should Only Use Z rated Powerpacks for Z scale trains. With the UP6Z the DCS-52 is Z rated. I also recommend getting a Circuit Breaker of some sort. If a loco derails and shorts it will fry the decoder before you can pick it up. I prefer using the DCC Specialties PSX1 Circuit Breaker 3.) Can you explain what "DCC drop in ready" means? Installing a decoder depends on the particular locomotive. Some you mealy need to remove the shell slip the existing light board out and slip a decoder back in its place reinstall the shell and your ready to start programing it =(Drop-In) But some (drop ins) are not so easy they require filing and reworking the solder pads to make them fit. Then their is the Hardwire type which can be more difficult. Again depending on the particular loco you will have to find a spot to put the decoder than solder the wires in place, Others you will have to move things around or even mill the chassis down just to make room for the decoder. The insulation process is different for different types of loco's. Post a list of the loco's your interested in then we can better help you with the install process on a one by one basis. As for DC and DCC compatibility well it depends on the decoder, and the power supply. For the most part you CAN NOT run a DC loco on a DCC setup unless the DCC pack is specially designed to do so and those that are will only allow you to run one DC Loco at a time. However Many DCC decoders can be set to run on DC, but not all. And while it is possible to run some DCC loco's on DC, I do not recommend you do so. 4.) Any products you would never use again. Mistakes you've made I do not care for MTL turnouts. They are well known to be problems Keep all your track accessible. IE: Make all tunnels removable so you can get at derailed cars and clean the track. Put together a test loop of track 195mm minimum radius, 220mm would be better with at least 220mm of straight track. Get a DC power pack and test run brake in your loco's on DC before attempting to install decoders Run as large of a radius turn as you can while most Marklin can navigate a 145mm radius some AZL require 220mm or even 245mm radius. Short cars and loco's will run fine on a large radius but larger /longer cars and Loco's will not run on a smaller radius.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 12:31:11 GMT -5
And in case of a short circuit on a Rokuhan turnout You can MELT the contact springs and have to replace the whole device ! For that reason, look at my Avatar ... I would say : - DCC for HO : OK. - for N : maybe OK (despite of the fact that a N-modeller friend has often issues with DCC-equipped locos). - for Z : especially for a child, definitely NO ! And most resellers of Z write : "not suitable for children under 14 years".
Look at my layout : it runs pure DC, a train at once ... and I have the same amount of fun !
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Post by BAZman on Jun 19, 2022 15:26:20 GMT -5
Sorry to be a ‘downer’, just being cautious. You can do it, (just prepping you for gotchas.
The DCC power has been defined. Use the Digitrax Zephyr and UP6Z reducer. use their 13.8 Volt, 3.5 Amp power supply. (Using a lower current supply will cause the entire Zephyr system to shut down/restart each time. Protect after the power to the track). ALL DCC systems (Digitrax, NCE, MRC, Zimo, etc) have *WAY* too much Current, for Z. Z scale locomotives use <o,1 Amp. So DCC systems have ~13 V @ ~3 A = 45 Watts, when there is short !!! The Zephyr has built-in Short protection, but at 3 Amps. The $50 PowerShield PSX series protects 1.8 Amps, but NO DCC system configuration will save your trains, every time. The initial power (mainly Current) will always be what comes put of the Wall-Wart or corded supply, until electronics detects and acts. This is commonly 1/4 second. Be prepared. You can also be very well protected with just 1 incandescent lightbulb. 12 Volt 1 Amp (12 watt) or lower Amps ones
The loco that you chose is a long one. While diesel loco motives can run better, the issue with this one model is that the the body-mounted coupler. This can make running reliability a problem in curves. This primarily comes form straight-to-curve tracks (and vice-versa), where the bodies become greatly offset. Especially with smaller 195 versus 220 radii). The Diesel locos handle this better as they have truck mounted couplers. NOTE: *please* do not use the 145 or smaller radii track. The locomotive (and passenger cars) cannot run with these tight radii, only short locos and 40’ rolling stock)
The Decoder installation videos make it look easy, as noted, need to: 1) trim solder off the DCC board until it will actually fit in the notch (*with friction*). Not loose or there will bad/no power pickup. 2) bend the motor tabs to assure contact, when the board is *fully* seated (slid in until it drops in the rear post. 3) look to see that DCC board’s motor tabs are *not* touching the frame (sides). A simple Ohm meter yes/no. Do NOT put the shell on the loco, test, Programmed and Run. We commonly have board contact install and after running issues. Newer 2022 boards are completely different and screw in.
Setup your Zephyr’s “Programming Track”. This essential plain track with Resistors to limit Short current but enough power to pulse the motor/lights. Place the loco on the track and follow the prompts to Address. NOTE: 2 digit Address are different to program and aquifer on the DCC systems. Most use a different number entry than 3-4 digit direct entry. When programming, the lights will flash and the motor will pulse, moving the loco an inch or so. If no lights/motor, there is not motor contact or board-to-frame notch connection (or, Short, but I think the zephyr displays that.
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Post by Philthy on Jun 19, 2022 18:40:44 GMT -5
BAZmanWhat do you mean by protecting with an incandescent light bulb?
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Post by dazed on Jun 19, 2022 23:16:21 GMT -5
You've had almost all of your questions answered quite well, by a number of extremely capable model railroaders. So, I'm not getting into 90% of your questions as I have nothing additional to offer and it doesn't sound like you would want to hear what I have to say anyway. BUT, (and especially since you keep steering everyone away from the multiple elephants in the room and back to your initial post) there is one thing in your original post that I think everyone sort of glossed over and might be important. You said "I don't want a simple loop. I want to make something that can create some wonder. All the bells and whistles (literally cause... DCC)." I just want to make sure you understand that--in Z-Scale--DCC does NOT automatically equate to locomotives that make on-board sound like some that are available in larger scales. Sound equipped locos in Z are VERY much a highly customized and expensive proposition. There may be less than 5 people doing this in Z right now and at least one of them (and I think maybe two of them) are in this thread. Money doesn't seem to be an object with you, and if so that's great and you can probably get a sound equipped Amtrak P42DC like you referenced. I just wanted to make sure you weren't making assumptions about the *literal* "bells and whistles". Maybe I missed someone addressing this, or maybe that isn't your assumption at all, and if so I apologize. Now, having said that, there are ways to do sound in Z a little more economically, by having stationary decoders that feed a sound system or similar workarounds. But DCC alone does not grant you sound capabilities if that is what your assumption is. And there are ways to get sound *without* DCC, including that soothing water sound. (please, please don't use real water on a model railroad...oops that slipped out...lol) Good luck!
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