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Post by husafreak on Aug 1, 2021 11:26:21 GMT -5
Wow, that’s a pretty cool device. It makes a lot of sense to test DCC boards prior to install and especially if it’s a wired in installation with all the work involved. As for continuity testing I think I’m doing it right but just to check, I want to make sure the two “sides” of the chassis, positive and negative, are still separate after the board is installed and (of course) before powering it up on the program track. So I’m not putting my test leads on the DCC board pads but rather on the chassis.
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rray
Fireman
Retired and model railroading till the last train out!
Posts: 87
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Post by rray on Aug 1, 2021 15:47:42 GMT -5
Yes, make sure the two frame sides are not 0 ohms, usually you see something like 1.4K ohms or higher, and ALSO check both frame sides to both motor sides, and see high resistance there too. If you see 0 ohms between any frame half and any motor terminal the H Bridge part of the decoder is shorted and will burn out or the loco will take off like a bat out of hell. If the loco takes off like that, you should immediately pull it off the track and check the motor for a short to the frame before putting it on the track again.
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Post by baumback on Aug 1, 2021 16:59:52 GMT -5
_ View AttachmentI have the original Tony's Train Exchange tester, and I put small alligator clips on it to make it easy to clamp on drop in decoders. I think any DCC Decoder Tester will work, if you can solder on alligator or test clips. You do not need a computer to use it, just connect it to your track and decoder, and test operation. It simulates a locomotive is connected to it. Remember that you also need a multimeter to test for shorted or open circuits after installing the decoder in your locomotive. A shorted motor will let the smoke out. Even a cheapie $5 multimeter will work. www.amazon.com/Voltmeter-Multimeter-Capacitance-Resistance-Laboratory/dp/B08GL9QMSDWhen I was playing with N scale, I picked up an ESU 539000 Decoder tester. Although designed primarily for a larger scale utilizing the multiple DCC connector styles, decoders can also be jumpered to the tester. MBKlein and others have it in stock for less than $45. It has worked great for me. Mark
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Post by cypresspointrail on Aug 19, 2021 18:20:25 GMT -5
Update: I got DC power hooked to test track. GP38 AZL DCC working loco runs forward and back on DC power can't control speed. DCC track power now 13.28. Works just fine on DCC track forward and reverse speed is adjustable through all ranges. Took decoder out to test couldn't get any response on the tester(NCE decoder tester). Install back in loco runs properly on DCC track.
SD40 Micro Train had decoder installed put on DC track ran great forward and back speed changes great for 20 minutes no lights. Set on DCC track nothing. Disassembled put on Kapton tape in proper spots. Tested decoder no readings or lights put decoder back in nothing.
SD75M AZL had decoder in put on DC motor hum. Put on DCC track lights function for direction control is set motor hums then light flickers then nothing. Didn't test decoder seems useless cause first two test resulted in nothing. Disassembled put Kapton tape on iffy spots. Put original light board in put on DC track lights come on appropriate to direction selected no motor hum. Tried to help it along now lights barely glow.
My next process is to take out motor and hook directly to DC track power.
I see I need to try what David posted: Disconnect your DC supply from the test track, hook it up to your PowerCAB and try to run the DCC equipped loco that you know is working on your test track. Now that you know the PowerCAB and test track is working remove the working loco, put the one you just put the decoder in on the track and try to reset the decoder changing CV 8 to 8 for Digitrax or CV 8 to 2 for TCS Decoders. If your Power Cab can not detect the decoder it may be fried or it may not be getting the continuous power from the track that it needs for programing. Use a set of alligator clip jumpers clip one end to the right rail and the other to the right chassis half use another jumper to connect the left chassis half to the left rail. and try to program it again. If the power cab still can't detect the decoder remove the decoder from the loco and connect the alligator clips directly to the solder tabs you filed down and to the rails. (make sure the alligator clips only contact the solder pads meant to contact the frame halves and nothing else) and try to program the decoder itself again. if that does not work one final step you can try is to use a 2nd set of alligator clip jumpers and connect them from the motor contact tabs on the decoder directly to the contact points on the motor(some decoders need the resistance created from the motor being connected to be detected by the PowerCAB Be careful doing it this way a clip accidently contacting the wrong part could easily fry the decoder
Robert
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Post by BAZman on Aug 19, 2021 23:11:27 GMT -5
Robert thanks for the update. Since we know the SD75 is from older manufacturing, may have a drive-chain issue. However, still some strange results, overall. I like David’s thinking using 2 cheapie alligator clips to the board but you really should have a motor (ANY small motor, even 6 volts or so). This guarantees that the decoder will respond. You can also use to LED’s back-to-back (pref Red and Green - so ya know it’s DCC [orange —> wrong ], red for ’Forward’, etc. To Reset the decoder, you can easily, if you know the loco Address. With NCE, Select Loco (enter address that IS in the decoder). Press: Prog/Esc, then Enter. Screen should say: 1: ADDR. 2: CV, 3: CFG. Place loco on DCC powered track. Press 2 for CV’s, then 8 (Enter) for CV08, then 8 (Enter). The decoder will now have Address 03 and default values. See page 48 of the NCE Power Cab Manual: ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/200656629/Power_Cab_V_1.65_Manual.pdfWith the Power Cab in Program Track (Program/Esc, then 4, Enter short cut), press 1:STD to start the decoder Manufacturer ID. It should detect the decoder in a few seconds (motor pulses /LED flashes) and displays the Manufacturer 129 for Digitrax, 153 for TCS). If you don’t get it, the decoder is likely dead. [the way this works is the DCC ‘Command Station’ in this case the Power Cab) scans CV’s (Configuration Variables) starting at CV1 and beyond. If there is an active the motor ‘replies’. This is how it gets the 129 ID. A lower Manufactur ID would cause the motor to pulse earlier. After installing a decoder, it should run at Address 3. If NOT, power off!. If it does run, you are good, NOTHING else needs to be changed, besides a new address. With NCE, Press Prog/Esc, I would really like you to send me the SD75 and decoder. Once I figure wazzup, then present the details back here. PM me please
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Post by zscalehobo on Aug 25, 2021 16:03:27 GMT -5
All ... The OP just sent me a PDF of his layout as it was one of my questions regarding reportedly inoperable SD70 locos (after converting to DCC) i had sold to him. There was a proof of smooth function at my location on my DC test track prior to shipment.
I was surprised to see .... The layout has a reverse loop on it!
I'll be the first to admit I don't know that much about DCC but I'd have to think that a reverse loop must still be accounted for - much as we do in DC land.
Any additional comments?
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Post by BAZman on Aug 25, 2021 16:19:41 GMT -5
Absolutely needs gapped rails and, ”auto reverser”. The Loop Track needs to be gapped both rails on both sides of the turnout (4 gaps total). A separate circuit (Auto reverser) swaps the track polarity once the train reaches the opposite end of the loop and touches the track. This is done instantly and the clarity reversal doesn’t impact DCC look at motors as it already is an alternate polarity track voltage.
The Tam Valley DFJ003 is the best for this, as it has the lower current chip point and protection than the Tony’s Trains “Power Shield – AR” design more for HO and I current trains so very little short protection capabilities for Zscale-IO. The Tam Valley works great.
The Auto Reverse gets its power from the mainline track (the power that shared throughout)
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Post by cypresspointrail on Aug 25, 2021 19:23:31 GMT -5
Just to clarify my DCC layout does have gapped rails at 4 points. With a Digitrax AR1 auto reverser. I have a separate track for testing DC. After installing the decoders and putting on the DCC test track that's where the gremlins come in. Have yet to see a diagram for testing a Digitrax or TCS decoder for Z scale. I have 2 testers one ESU and one 219 NCE. Thanks, Robert
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Post by BAZman on Aug 26, 2021 0:50:38 GMT -5
Here are 2 pix of the ESU 51900 with a wired decoder, which can directly have leads in to the 51900 and, a second pix of a Digitrax DZ123Z0 'drop-in' decoder. The 'tester' is only a accessory that allows Motor and LED emulation for wired decoders and Motor only for the DZ123Z0 as the LED's are already on the board. So to test the DZ123Z0, you will need clips to attach to the 2 frame power (the Red and Black in the pictures). There really is not a polarity requirement, just get them attached without touching other parts. Then 2 clips to the motor tabs (which will stress the phosphor-bronze material) are connected back to the tester which as a motor. On the right side are 3 ways to get Track power the 51900. The green Phoenix connector is easiest. No polarity is required (the colors are just to allow each connection on the board's commonality). You then simply put the NCE Power Cab into Program mode and have at it. If the Cab can't get read the Manufacturer, its dead. If it does sense it, the external Motor should move a bit and should show the Manufacturer and Version. After determining or Programming an address (all the way through the 2nd Config? section until "Activate this..." You should be able to run the external motor through different speeds. If the DZ123 LEDs are still good, Headlight should turn on (the Frame connection end) and 'rear' LED with the Direction is pressed.
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Post by BAZman on Aug 26, 2021 14:18:45 GMT -5
Other note: Putting a DC loco on DCC track power will make it buzz. Putting a DCC loco on the DCC track and having it buzz means that the motor is not isolated from the frame. Putting a DCC loco on DC track power and having it not run means that motor is not contact the board tabs or, the CV has been disabled to run on DC. (typical turned off during programming)
As ALWAYS, after a decoder install, use an ‘continuity’ test (DVM, Ohm meter on Rx100) from each motor tab (top of aboard) to the adjacent frame for NO reading (tab is not touching frame). This does not check the tab to motor though and some frames, like the F7’s is nearly impossible (I use 1 strand of wire, magnifier and bright light to get to the motor tab)
The Digitrax and TCS decoders support ‘Analog’ (DC) above ~5 volts so, you can use a 9V battery against the frame to test that at least the PC board motor tabs are making contact (AFTER you previously checked for frame shorts !!!)
Any Motor/Frame shorts can kill a decoder instantly. Many manufacturers have learned with all of the returns an some protection features but . . .
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Post by cypresspointrail on Aug 27, 2021 15:20:17 GMT -5
Update: Thanks for everyone's help and comments. I have successfully got all of my locomotives converted and running on DCC. I didn't get to test the decoders, as I resolved the contact area of the decoder to motor contacts or frame contacts. No decoders were smoked in the process. Though I did find that my radius on my layout was to tight to run the SD45 SD70 and SD75. I have 4 GP38s and a couple RS-3s coming so I am set. Thanks for your patience while I muddled through. Robert
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Post by BAZman on Aug 28, 2021 12:32:34 GMT -5
Good to hear. It is often easy to resolve but sometimes there are unknowns like 145mm radii, cross-overs, track work, etc. everyone has different skills, vision and expectations.
One challenge has been the motor and manufacturer generations. AZL contracts their manufacturing (as does every train Company) so do not not complete control fo designs. Then there is the Decoder manufacturers that try to get something to work and then find that they have a new frame again and again and again.
As you have experienced, there are lots of people to help resolve the issues.
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Post by BAZman on Sept 19, 2021 0:36:15 GMT -5
Well . . . . . If you are a Dealer, you would would understand. If you are an eBay Seller, you would comparably understand.
So many of the shipments 'I never got it' when Tracking said that it was, even 'signed' for. Or its damaged/broken and, and, and, and and.
And if you try to claim that insurance, its next to impossible or tid-bits . . . . months later.
I appreciate you use of a local hobby shop (LHS) but in some cases, you will need to use a mainstream source.
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Post by dazed on Sept 19, 2021 12:46:41 GMT -5
It's pretty well known that AZL uses shipping as a profit center. Just one of those things you have to adjust to when factoring how much an item costs. It is a downer and hard to get used to, but eventually you'll mentally factor that in.
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Post by BAZman on Sept 19, 2021 20:36:15 GMT -5
Yeah, most dealers don’t want the Rokuhan as there is 0 profit before they even sell it (except likely the ~2 major ‘dealers’ that just deal with the ‘here it is’ inventory). I guess there could be worse.
Back to rhe DCC issue at hand … . . .
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