|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 28, 2021 15:55:06 GMT -5
I started this hobby in March 2021, built a 2'x4' bar top layout in DCC. I have learned a great deal have more to learn. My biggest discouragement has been trying to get the locomotives to work! I have 2- Micro Train SD40-2, 2-AZL GP38-2, 1-AZL SD75M and 2-AZL SD70. Only one if the GP38-2 have worked from the get go. When I put a decoder in one of the SD70s it took off in reverse around the track with all zeros on the NCE PowerCAB. It wouldn't respond to prompts from the controller. Changed decoder now nada zip! Just one lonely engine on the layout.
Not sure what to test or what reading I should expect.
My layout uses Rokuhan track, switch-kat decoders, Digitrax UP6Z voltage reducer. The track power is 9.28 Volts with .04 Amps.
They say DCC is expensive! I say non working locomotives is discouraging!!
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Robert
|
|
|
|
Post by markm on Jul 28, 2021 17:59:05 GMT -5
Robert,
Sorry for your frustration, but sometimes in this hobby one has take a few baby steps. There are people here with far more knowledge than I regarding DCC, who will probably respond. But for the moment let’s take a couple of those baby steps :
Are these all new locomotives from a dealer?
Did all the locomotives run well on DC?
Which decoders are you using in the locomotives?
How did you measure the track voltage? It seems a bit low.
The AZL units can be safely run on 12VDC, so you can eliminate the UP6Z when working with them.
Confirm the pcbs are firmly mounted and there are no shorts between the board and chassis.
I’ve found the first thing to do once a decoder responds, to perform a master reset on the decoder before starting to program.
If you search the threads here, you’ll find a number of people have struggled with their first DCC setup, myself included. So don’t feel frustrated.
Mark
|
|
|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 28, 2021 19:26:20 GMT -5
Mark,
Everything was new from several online dealers. Two verified DC, one of which went uncontrollably in reverse when converted to DCC the other one didn't even hint at running when converted to DCC.
Decoders are TCS AZL4, Digitrax DZ123MO for the MTL SD40-2 and Digitrax for the GP38-2.
The first decoder I installed worked flawlessly GP38-2. The rest sometimes I would get a hum or a light then nothing or nothing at all.
I have a NEC PowerCAB that puts out 13.4 Volts the reason for lowering voltage.
I have a DCC concepts omega meter reading track power.
Thanks for your input.
Robert
|
|
|
|
Post by tjdreams on Jul 28, 2021 21:42:00 GMT -5
Hi Robert Welcome to Z scale. Sorry to hear your having problems, But as Mark said there is a learning curve we all went through when starting out with Z and again when switching to DCC. From what you are describing you could be having a couple different issues. First I have a few Questions Is this your first time using DCC? Did you have the switch-kat decoders hoked up when testing the loco's? When installing the decoders did you just loosen the chassis screws or did you separate any of the chassis halves? For the AZL models did you slide a piece of Kapton tape down inside the chassis halves along side the motor contact tabs to prevent them from accidently contacting the chassis? My first suggestion is to narrow down the possible causes by getting yourself a separate loop of track or just a couple straight sections of track to use as a test track. Wire it up to your PCP panel with out anything else. No turnouts, no switch-kat, no other decoders and with out the up6z. You can get a 2nd track power plug to plug into your PCP from SBS4DCC.com store.sbs4dcc.com/NCE-ZIMO-RocoZ21ReplacementGreenTerminalBlock2Position3.5mm.aspxAs time goes on you will be glad you have a seporate test track to program and trouble shoot loco's on. Now before you test the loco's on your new test track remove the shell and check to make sure the the motor contact tabs on the AZL decoders to make sure they are not contacting the chassis halves. On the MTL decoders check to make sure the motor to decoder springs are not making contact with the chassis halfs. Do you have a Z scale DC power supply? if so disconnect the DCC track feeder and hook your test track up to the DC power and test the loco's on DC. If the loco that was humming runs on DC than you may have the boards mixed up. A DC loco will sit and hum on DCC. David |
|
|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 29, 2021 1:16:12 GMT -5
David,
Yes first time DCC.
Switch-kat not hooked up to the test track, if it don't work on the test track it doesn't move to the layout.
Installing Digitrax decoders had to file solder ever so slight to fit chassis. Normal decoder installation no chassis screws were loosened or halves separated, TCS decoders fit without adjustment, just slid out light board, slide in decoder after bending tabs forward.
The AZL GP38-2 that runs I have had screws out halves apart, wheels off and back together 3 times, it still runs. Changed the address three times.
Kapton tape has not been added, looks as though there is tape in there.
I will try the DC power supply I don't currently have one.
Thanks,
Robert
|
|
rick
New Member
Posts: 19
|
Post by rick on Jul 29, 2021 7:44:23 GMT -5
I started the Z hobby in Jan 2021.
I didn't even know what DCC was until a few months into the pass-time.
I purchased 3 AZL DCC locos only 1 ever worked properly.
Of the 3 Marklin DCC enable locos I purchased 1 fried it's decoder within 5 seconds on the track.
I gave up and moved to N scale.
What a difference. Smooth running, factory fitted DCC locos. I've recently purchased 2 with sound. Amazing, immersive stuff.
I'll keep the Z scale items I've purchased (including over a dozen DC locos).
They're still great fun to run around an oval, and one day my grandchildren will inherit some fun antiquated toys.
But until Z manufacturers seriously step up to the challenge of factory installing DCC then it will remain very much a niche part of the model railroad scene.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 9:22:49 GMT -5
Don't think that Model Railroad = DCC necessarily. Look at my layout. It uses conventional analog technology, only controlled by a single board computer as a sequencer (like my former N layout in the 80's, controlled via a Commodore-64 and TTL-IC's), runs only one train at once but has even some interesting features more than most DCC layouts, for example automatic simulation of (un)loading the hoppers. So Your problem is not the scale, but the fact that You wanna ABSOLUTELY DCC : model railroading existed long before (and without) this system.
Today I saw a report about a Swiss "show" layout on German TV : more than 200 locos, more than 1500 cars, 2 km of tracks ... and no DCC ! Only 3 operators ...
|
|
|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 29, 2021 11:05:57 GMT -5
Rick,
I feel your pain about Z scale. Its interesting they no longer produce DCC locomotives. I am not jumping to N scale. I am trying to learn what to test, where to look, how to overcome and rock the railroad I have. I seemed to have spent more time learning what doesn't play well with this brand or that.
Alberich,
You have an incredible layout! (It uses conventional analog technology) looks like a learning curve that equals DCC.
Robert
|
|
|
|
Post by dazed on Jul 29, 2021 12:02:13 GMT -5
The problem isn't DCC. DCC is about as close to standard in the larger scales as you can get. It works very well, and provides capabilities that really aren't available otherwise. For those doing ops, there is no other practical option. (exception being the R/C path for HO and larger) Z-Scale is just a different animal. The physics make conductivity and weight more critical. Couple that with a general lack of consistency with regards to how manufacturers have tried to implement DCC in Z, and you often have a generally poor end-result without some significant modifications and fine-tuning. That isn't universal--there are isolated examples where DCC is easy to install in Z and works well, and there are many modelers that tweak things and have success. But I think it does manifest itself with the general model railroader that may not have the experience and/or skills (and/or a little luck*) to get things running well. I include myself in that general group, or at best maybe a 'tweener of sorts. While I have had extensive experience with DCC in N (and HO ops) and I have developed some of the skills, I admittedly have a couple of Z DCC conversions that have languished on the workbench too long due to my lack of skill...or efficiency I guess would be the better way of putting it. I pretty much know what needs to be done, but it just takes me longer. (story of my life.  ) Automation is an entirely different discussion. Automation and DCC aren't mutually exclusive...you can have automation with or without DCC, and you can have DCC with or without automation. *For those that don't think luck is relevant....you've clearly never re-inserted the AZL pickups back into the frame on the first try.   |
|
|
|
Post by sjl on Jul 29, 2021 12:36:27 GMT -5
*For those that don't think luck is relevant....you've clearly never re-inserted the AZL pickups back into the frame on the first try. I've never been that lucky. |
|
|
|
Post by tjdreams on Jul 31, 2021 11:21:04 GMT -5
Hi Robert
Ok once you get a DC power supply put the original boards back in and make sure they will run on DC. Then put the decoder back in and make sure the tabs on the decoder are only making contact with the motor contacts. If they are hitting the inside of the chassis halves it could short out and/or fry the decoder.
Disconnect your DC supply from the test track,
hook it up to your Powercab and try to run the DCC equipped loco that you know is working on your test track. Now that you know the powercab and test track is working remove the working loco, put the one you just put the decoder in on the track and try to reset the decoder changing CV 8 to 8 for Digitrax or CV 8 to 2 for TCS Decoders. If your Power Cab can not detect the decoder it may be fried or it may not be getting the continuous power from the track that it needs for programing. Use a set of alligator clip jumpers clip one end to the right rail and the other to the right chassis half use another jumper to connect the left chassis half to the left rail. and try to program it again. If the power cab still can't detect the decoder remove the decoder from the loco and connect the alligator clips directly to the solder tabs you filed down and to the rails. (make sure the alligator clips only contact the solder pads meant to contact the frame halves and nothing else) and try to program the decoder itself again. if that does not work one final step you can try is to use a 2nd set of alligator clip jumpers and connect them from the motor contact tabs on the decoder directly to the contact points on the motor(some decoders need the resistance created from the motor being connected to be detected by the Powercab Be careful doing it this way a clip accidently contacting the wrong part could easily fry the decoder
Keep us posted and let us know if any of this works for you.
You can get a set of alligator clip jumpers from Amazon for a few dollars. They come in different lengths as well as with different styles and sized clips. I have a collected several styles, sizes and lengths over the years they come in handy from time to time for things like this.
David
|
|
|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 31, 2021 13:02:10 GMT -5
David,
Thanks for the tips. I am waiting on the DC power pack so I can do some testing. I got a roll of Kapton tape in case I need to isolate chassis parts.
I will be in touch when I'm able to test.
Thanks again,
Robert
|
|
rray
Fireman
Retired and model railroading till the last train out!
Posts: 87 
|
Post by rray on Jul 31, 2021 19:43:14 GMT -5
DCC can be a nightmare, or it can work first time every time. It's all about verify and double verify the connections.
1) Always verify the locomotive works on DC first. Forward and Backward.
2) Verify the decoder works with a decoder tester.
3) After installing the decoder, measure the resistance between the motor terminals and wheels on each side. A short between the motor terminals and the rails will damage the decoder.
4) Program the converted loco on the programming track, observing that it moves a small amount each CV that is programmed. That motor pulse is the decoder's confirmation of updating each CV. The programming track is current limited to reduce the likelihood of damage to a shorted decoder.
5) Now it's safe to place the DCC converted loco on the track and verify smooth forward and reverse operation.
-Robert
|
|
|
|
Post by cypresspointrail on Jul 31, 2021 22:24:07 GMT -5
Robert,
Any recommendations on the type or brand of decoder tester?
Does this mean I need to hook up to computer for decoder testing?
Thanks,
Robert
|
|
rray
Fireman
Retired and model railroading till the last train out!
Posts: 87
|
Post by rray on Aug 1, 2021 9:52:33 GMT -5
_  I have the original Tony's Train Exchange tester, and I put small alligator clips on it to make it easy to clamp on drop in decoders. I think any DCC Decoder Tester will work, if you can solder on alligator or test clips. You do not need a computer to use it, just connect it to your track and decoder, and test operation. It simulates a locomotive is connected to it. Remember that you also need a multimeter to test for shorted or open circuits after installing the decoder in your locomotive. A shorted motor will let the smoke out. Even a cheapie $5 multimeter will work. www.amazon.com/Voltmeter-Multimeter-Capacitance-Resistance-Laboratory/dp/B08GL9QMSD |
|
)
