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Post by johnapw on Jun 13, 2021 12:50:01 GMT -5
Although I've been running my 1940's freelance NY/NJ N-scale layout on Digitrax DCC for 20 years, I'm just starting in Z-scale.
I don't see myself running as large and complex a layout as I had in N-scale (22 trains ran in a 2-hour fast clock operating session), so I'm not sure if I'll be using DCC, but I want the option. Thus I have purchased the Digitrax UP6Z and a decoder for my first Z-scale loco (MT GP35 - not transition era, but fine for getting started).
So, my 3 questions: 1. To what degree are the various brands of Z-scale track compatible (Atlas, Marklin, Micro-Trains, Rokuhan, others?) Are there any combinations that are clearly NOT compatible?
2. To what degree are the various couplers compatibile? I know that MT and ATZ make knuckle couplers; are they compatible? I also know that there's a (what I see as odd) "long flat hook" coupler from someone else; I know these are not compatible with the MT and ATZ couplers...
3. How can I tell which AZL locos can be converted to DCC, and which decoders fit which models?
Of the nearly 300 N-scale locos that I converted to DCC, only about 80 were light-board replacements. All the rest were the old-fashioned way. So, I'm not worried about doing conversions, only if there are decoders available (and space in the locos).
I would appreciate factual info, and opinions based on experience. Please be clear about which is which!
Also, I welcome pointers to good source info, so please let me know if there are other places I should be reading.
Thanks, -John
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Post by markm on Jun 13, 2021 13:05:18 GMT -5
John,
Welcome to the forum and welcome to Z. Let's jump right in to the questions.
Regarding track, the best description is that various brands can be made to work together. Rail in Z is either code 55 or 65. Rail profiles vary with each manufacturer as do the rail joiners. So if you are willing to use a variety of of joiners and do a bit of bending and squeezing and maybe some soldering, all the track is "compatible. If you are looking at roadbed track (Rokuhan and MTL) the roadbed connections are not compatible. My suggestion for a first layout would be to pick one manufacturer that provides the elements you need.
All the knuckle couplers are compatible. MTL offers the magnematic couplers that you can remotely uncouple. The AZL couplers couple well, but stay coupled. The smaller manufacturers have based their design off of these two.
As for DCC, MTL locomotives will accept a drop-in decoder except for the F7. AZL locomotives with 5 digit model numbers, also accept drop-in decoders. There have been some tolerance issues as described in the recent DCC posts here. A number of other models will accept wired-in decoders. In a couple of cases, like the RDCs, one can even fit sound decoders, although there is currently no sound decoder designed for Z. To confirm, I'd check AZL product page to confirm DCC compatibility.
Hope this helps,
Mark
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Post by tjdreams on Jun 13, 2021 13:59:44 GMT -5
The track is all pretty much compatable you may have to shim the non roadbed to adjust the height when connecting to roadbed track. For road bed track Rokuhan has the best selection and their turnouts are a lot more reliable than MTL's. For non roadbed track you will have to stick with Atlas if you want American tie spacing. Also keep in mind that the larger the Loco the larger the radius needs to be. While most Marklin Loco's will run on a 195mm R or even a 145mm radius AZL Recommends 220mm Radius or larger for some of their locomotives The Long Flat hook is Marklin commonly called fishhook couplers they are only compatible with themselves AZL, MTL, full Throttle are all compatible. MTL also had some cars with Marklin fishhook couplers back in the 80's -90's The easiest way to interconnect the two is to make a transition car by putting a MTL style coupler on one end and marklin on the other. Then theirs Rokuhan they have their own style coupler but they also have different couplers that can be swapped in which are compatible with MTL, & AZL. Digitrax and TCS both make "Drop-in" boards that will fit most AZL Loco's but they are not exactly drop in. Both will require a little tweaking to get the best fit. The AZL GP7/9's will need to be hardwired but have solder tabs on the board to make installation of a TCS Z2 or similar micro sized decoder a little easier. The Mikados just barely have enough room in the tender for a micro or nano sized decoder to be hard wired in Currently the new RS-3 / RDS-5 will need a nano sized decoder hard wired in, However Z-modell has announced one that will drop in but it hasn't hit the market yet. You can pre order one at. www.zscalemonster.com/All AZL Brass Loco's need to have the decoders hardwired in. If your not afraid to do a little modifying and milling it is possible to put a LokSound 5 micro Sound decoder into some of AZL's E and F units. A how-to write-up has been submitted to Ztrack Magazine. Hopefully it will make the cut and get published in a upcoming issue for all to read. David
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Post by scanrail on Jun 13, 2021 15:09:59 GMT -5
In a couple of cases, like the RDCs, one can even fit sound decoders, although there is currently no sound decoder designed for Z. Let me add some details on this subject. Technically, a big number of sound decoders small enough to fit in many Z scale vehicles already exist today. I don't want to list all manufacturers; I just mention ESU from Germany - one of leading manufacturers of all sorts of digital equipment for model railways. Their wonderful LokSound 5.0 Micro decoders with the size of only 21 x 10 mm (and recently announced 19.6 x 8.5 mm size LokSound 5.0 Nano) offer best sound quality to date (16 bit/31250 kHz) and what is most important - very wide selection of prototypical sound projects for American rolling stock. Here is a link to the sound project for Budd RDC railcar: projects.esu.eu/projectoverviews/search?cat=18&q=rdcESU claims that this sound project was "recorded from Reading and Northern RDC 9168" (see description). PS. It is not an advertisement; as a developer and small series manufacturer of Z scale models and accessories, I use ESU products in my own projects very actively and for sure I can recommend them to everyone. Greetings, Alex
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Post by markm on Jun 13, 2021 15:48:05 GMT -5
Alex,
Thanks for the RDC information. Sounds much better than the N scale decoder I used and the functionality better fits the lighting details I want to add to the rail car. At the moment, I’ve been avoiding recommending DCC specific unless I’m directly asked. My last order for a two function decoder took 2 months to fill. DCC in Z is getting popular! Also, it seems that the EU electronics recycling standards are making some U.S. dealers reluctant to stock European products.
Mark
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Post by johnapw on Jun 13, 2021 17:28:25 GMT -5
Thank you Mark, David and Alex!
That's a lot of good info to get going with!
I'm awaiting delivery of the AZL RS3, and have emailed the Monster site about the decoder.
Good point about track radius - my N-scale layout was all flextrack with eased curves, so I'll be very careful, to be able to run Z-scale steam locos at some future point! (I'll be modelling the transition era, NY/NJ/PA roads.)
I appreciate all the help, and am looking forward to building my first Z scale layout!
Thanks, -John
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rick
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by rick on Jun 14, 2021 3:52:03 GMT -5
johnapwI'm curious as to why you are coming to Z from N? After another frustrating weekend in Z I was thinking of switching to N before I got in too deep. Rick
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Post by Commodore on Jun 14, 2021 10:51:58 GMT -5
johnapw I'm curious as to why you are coming to Z from N? After another frustrating weekend in Z I was thinking of switching to N before I got in too deep. Rick You didn’t ask me… But… The innovation and innovators are in Z scale. N scale is more commercial. Fabrage eggs (or smaller works of art) more closely describe Z.
Stick around! The best is yet to come…
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Post by churro on Jun 14, 2021 11:14:03 GMT -5
I just started in z and I'm growing to like the scale. I'm amazed with how much new stuff is coming out in the scale and the fact that prototype specific details are also a thing in this scale. I'm very interested to see what new items come out.
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Post by dazed on Jun 14, 2021 13:22:31 GMT -5
johnapw I'm curious as to why you are coming to Z from N? After another frustrating weekend in Z I was thinking of switching to N before I got in too deep. Rick Honestly, I would ask that question too. I started the move from N to Z about 6 years ago, and went all-in about 4 years ago. I have a very specific use case (long, modern trains; not a ton of switching; ops focused on mainline/passing sidings) that lends itself well to Z. (in theory) Even at that, I'm still not convinced I made the right decision. If I could wave a magic wand and instantly sell my entire Z collection for 60-70% of what I paid for it, I'd do it in a second. There is actually as much or more innovation being done in N right now as there is in Z. DCC is standard. Sound is becoming a mature feature, and detailed rolling stock is the norm now instead of the exception. A lot of custom *quality* work is being done now in N using 3D printing and previously niche activities for N like handlaying track are gaining a lot of momentum. And N-scale still has Micro-Trains. (yes, depending on who you ask that could be a good or bad thing. But their weathered stuff is flat out off-the-charts good, DODX stuff is nice, etc. And despite what AZL thinks, Z-scale *needs* Micro-Trains to step back up to the mic in Z.) I don't have that wand and don't have time to go full-on "hobbyshop mode" so I'm stuck with Z for the time being. And if certain things fall the right way then maybe my (forced) patience with Z will pay off. But I would just forewarn you to really stop and think about this move. You can PM me if you want some of the annoyances and other truths about Z and the comparison to N. Few on this forum are interested in such things.
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Post by scanrail on Jun 14, 2021 14:28:16 GMT -5
johnapw I'm curious as to why you are coming to Z from N? After another frustrating weekend in Z I was thinking of switching to N before I got in too deep. Rick Actually, there is one and only reason for staying with Z: only if you want your model railway to be THAT small. The end. If you really want it, you will accept any compromises, you will tolerate all shortcomings and you will be OK with the fact that Z is often more expensive than other scales. If you are not concerned too much about scale, then Z is probably not for you. If you just wanna get addicted to model railways and simply prefer something smaller - choose N. If you are not limited by space and need everything you can ever imagine - then simply choose H0. And forget about Z. Z is a permanent headache: "How to do this?", "How to adapt that?", "How to make in Z something usual in all other scales, but never existed here?" - these will be your questions all the time. But Z is also a strong virus. Everyone affected by it will accept everything. Everyone unimpaired will be indifferent to Z or even hate it. If you are not affected by Z, then it is a perfect time to jump off and switch to a different scale. Best regards, Alex
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Post by zscalehobo on Jun 14, 2021 18:19:59 GMT -5
After another frustrating weekend in Z ... Rick Saw your post on Marklin Users ... what are you using to clean your tracks? If you're using Marklin tracks - have you deformed the joiners (fishplates as they say in the UK) down to the rails? What you use to clean is important as well as ensuring you have good conductivity from section-to-section - especially if you're using dated marklin tracks. Further more ... I believe that fresh rails are the best way to go with marklin not purely as a sales pitch, but coming from a user's point of view. Much gnashing of teeth is caused by using old rails that are deeply oxidized, pitted and otherwise prone to accelerated buildup of gunk that causes poor conductivity. On buying used rails - eBay bargains are bargains for a reason - the rails were sitting somewhere collecting dust and residue for upwards of 50 years up in Grandpa's attic! Don't use Bright-Boy or anything too abrasive. Remove oils from rails with a paper towel or a touch of 91% alcohol. Do not use rubbing alcohol or anything less than 91% otherwise you're adding more junk to the rails including water! Once the alcohol has evaporated and all oils removed ... I run a polishing paper over the rails where trains stop ... as abrasive as I get is 3000 to 5000 grit "polishing paper." I have seen folks using nail files and the like, but those only SCORE the tracks exposing lines in which contamination grows exponentially. As for the fishplate deformation, the image at left shows loose joiners ... deform them with a small flat-tip screwdriver to ensure you're getting good contact. Each fishplate has 4 spots that can be deformed with the screwdriver. Each two-rail joint has EIGHT spots to press down upon. Stick with it ... once you've overcome your initial bugs, you'll be running trains like I do - every day and problem-free. Video of my cleaning steps ... mind you - I used a bit too much alcohol in this video - but you get the gist.
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Post by neverland on Jun 14, 2021 18:29:49 GMT -5
Only in Z can you fit an entire county on one sheet of plywood! Keep your tracks clean and you’re gonna fall in love!
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rick
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by rick on Jun 15, 2021 11:07:27 GMT -5
Thanks zscalehobo and dazed for the information and support. Nice to be in a forum where you don't get flamed for saying something that could be considered negative. Don't anyone get me wrong here. Frankly in an ideal world I'd have a layout of both Z and N and enjoy the best of both worlds. Sadly both finances and space are limiting factors. My original choice for Z was the ability to make a small but interesting layout in a very small space. I never dreamt I would get so ridiculously hooked on model railways as a hobby. If I'm not tinkering with my new interest physically I'm watching YouTube videos of long American trains go by. The wife must think I've lost it. But having experienced using DCC over the past couple of days I can see this is the way I want to go and it's just not mature enough yet at Z scale. The comments dazed made above ring very true for me. Likely I'll try and do a bit in both scales.
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Post by markm on Jun 15, 2021 11:32:59 GMT -5
Rick,
Has anyone mentioned to you computer control with DCC? Check out JMRI. If you think you’re hooked now.
Mark
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