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Post by Rob Albritton on Oct 26, 2020 17:03:03 GMT -5
Simple answer to this one: Beginner or T-Trak module? Rokuhan. Everyone else? Atlas. Atlas Turnouts: You have to derive some method of powering the frog Really? I've run them without connecting the frog to anything without problems. Now, I would not run that short Marklin 0-6-6 switcher through it, but 99% of double truck locomotives will run through Atlas turnouts without the frog connected!
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Post by dazed on Oct 26, 2020 19:14:12 GMT -5
Simple answer to this one: Beginner or T-Trak module? Rokuhan. Everyone else? Atlas. Atlas Turnouts: You have to derive some method of powering the frog Really? I've run them without connecting the frog to anything without problems. Now, I would not run that short Marklin 0-6-6 switcher through it, but 99% of double truck locomotives will run through Atlas turnouts without the frog connected!Yes, really. While it's true that for "running" it's unlikely a requirement, it would still be a *strong suggestion* in my book. It was a strong suggestion in my book when I was in N-scale, and it was a strong suggestion from 100% of others I know that used Atlas C55 on layouts designed for ops. And in Z, there is even less margin for error. But yes, for a module where trains are always coasting through at track speed you can probably roll the dice and not do it. (I still would) If you are doing ops where you may be travelling through at a slower speed while pushing the limits of a single (or even a pair) of 4-axle power, I think it would be unwise to skip powering the frog.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Oct 26, 2020 22:27:49 GMT -5
Yes, really. While it's true that for "running" it's unlikely a requirement, it would still be a *strong suggestion* in my book. It was a strong suggestion in my book when I was in N-scale, and it was a strong suggestion from 100% of others I know that used Atlas C55 on layouts designed for ops. And in Z, there is even less margin for error. But yes, for a module where trains are always coasting through at track speed you can probably roll the dice and not do it. (I still would) If you are doing ops where you may be travelling through at a slower speed while pushing the limits of a single (or even a pair) of 4-axle power, I think it would be unwise to skip powering the frog. Have you tried leaving them unpowered? I was honestly surprised how well they worked with the frogs unpowered. Is it better with powered frogs? Well, of course it is! But a power routing switch can be dangerous unless you have a perfect operational habit and memory, otherwise if you forget to flip the switch - ZZZAAAPPP!!! - you're going to take the express to short Circuit City, and maybe melt a wheelset while you're at it. You are correct: automatic frog circuits can be expensive, and a bit scary for beginners. So why not just simplify and enjoy the trains? Will it work (even at low speeds) without powered frogs? Yes. And in some cases, like an industrial siding that doesn't get a whole lot of use, powering the frog may be more trouble than it's worth. I usually use Tortoise motors on the Atlas turnouts, but I do have a few sidings that I left as manual turnouts. The Tortoise has the circuitry built in to power route the frog, but without the tortoise, I just left the frog unpowered. No problems at all. Even at slow speeds. And if you do have problems? Check for dirty wheels on your locomotive. Dirt on Z scale locomotive wheels is responsible for 90% of my operational problems - and its quick easy to clean the wheels. I've seen guys almost destroy track trying to clean it only to look at their locomotive wheels and see something that looked like it came out of a tractor pull mud bog. If you want the electrons to move to the motor than both the rails and the wheels need to be clean.
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Post by dazed on Oct 27, 2020 7:53:44 GMT -5
OK, how 'bout this... (to meet in the middle) I'll amend my strong suggestion to: "when you're installing Atlas turnouts, at very least wire a feeder to the frog and run it under the layout for future use. Neatly wire-tie a 12-inch feeder lead so you can reach the switch machine or relay. That way when you realize you should have powered the frog in the first place, you won't have to tear up your scenery to do so." I do agree with you about clean wheels. They are as important as...powered frogs! Sorry, I just have too much experience with Atlas C55 in N. Look, I love Atlas. They are my absolute all-time favorite model railroad company, bar none. (no offense) But, their Code 55 track is the epitome of the love-hate relationship. It's not a matter of if the Atlas track will rip your heart out, it's when. I've helped build several massive N layouts for a buddy of mine and each had well over a hundred Atlas turnouts. At the start it was "hey these work great without power to the frog." By layout three, it wasn't even a consideration...every turnout was wired. Now--even with its warts--it is still the best option. I completely agree with that. (well, to qualify that...for *my* skillsets. I would probably not argue that Fast Tracks would be better if that were something I thought I could accomplish consistently.) Anyway, just be careful flying too close to the sun there, Icarus.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Oct 27, 2020 12:21:47 GMT -5
OK, how 'bout this... (to meet in the middle) I'll amend my strong suggestion to: "when you're installing Atlas turnouts, at very least wire a feeder to the frog and run it under the layout for future use. Neatly wire-tie a 12-inch feeder lead so you can reach the switch machine or relay. That way when you realize you should have powered the frog in the first place, you won't have to tear up your scenery to do so." Agreed!!!! Look, I love Atlas. They are my absolute all-time favorite model railroad company, bar none. (no offense) But, their Code 55 track is the epitome of the love-hate relationship. It's not a matter of if the Atlas track will rip your heart out, it's when. Oh, I've put in a few Atlas turnouts too - and a bit of their track - like I'm counting the track in the hundreds of feet now, and i'm pretty close to the same on the turnouts. In fact, I'm on the verge of doing a full article on Atlas Turnouts - there are many, many things about them that are unlike Marklin, MTL, or Rokuhan - and I clearly do not recommend them for either beginner or modular / temporary layouts. BUT if you are building a more permanent layout, they are the best thing out there from the perspective of appearance and operation.
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Post by BAZman on Oct 28, 2020 17:28:16 GMT -5
I’d say use the Rokuhan, for its diversity but this does add up in costs. Flex and Turnouts is cheaper, can look better but more difficult to lay out. Several of us have discovered problems with the Atlas turnouts: - Frog feeder connection to the actual frog loss
- Divergent Rail is not curved and is *slightly* under gauge mid point
FROG: The frog power feeder is a flat stamps/etched ‘tab’ that is set under the frog when injection molded. A very low percentage have lost the contact to the frog. This is somewhat common on the N scale version to. There is no easy remedy. Soldering to the frog alloy is not easy and will easily melt the embedding plastic. Putting some ‘conductive’ paint is realistically worthless as the resistance is high and running thru a incorrectly thrown will pretty much burn out the conductive film from excess current. One on the Nn3 group has drilled and tapped the hole but it’s risky and you’ll need a small quality drill press *and* tap guide for 000- screws. I used a jewelers saw to create a gap on the frog exit rail side, the presses #32 solid wire in (this is not a proper connection technique and will fail at some point. So, like Rob and I do, we have run thru the unpowered frog without/minimal issue (until we get a fix). [Now Fixed by Atlas][UPDATE 11/16/2020: Atlas told me the first run of turnouts used pressure for the Frog power tab to the Frog itself. The production runs after are spot-welded! If you have a defect, send it back and they will replace it (just send with a note and your contact info on the note and they well send a new one. It will be at least two weeks as they are only in the office once or twice a week now due to COVID-19 *and*, the replacement must be in stock (check their website for the green 'In Stock'POINTS: The divergent point rail is straight (they use the same points for Left and Right). If you measure with calipers, it’s just a few thousandths under. Most all locos have run thru ok. I have a jig I used on the MicroEngineering C70 turnouts in N but this does stress the turnout parts so can break one. I’m in Contact with Atlas
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Post by zdave on Oct 28, 2020 19:58:34 GMT -5
I’m running with the Atlas turnouts, dead frog, and they look and work great. Even with low speed ops on my rail yard, with either the RS3’s or GP30’s.
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Post by domi on Nov 15, 2020 11:29:50 GMT -5
Interresting topic I’ve carefully read. I mostly agree with ProgressRail’s post on previous page. One more important point in my opinion : for reliable operations power routing style turnouts are mandatory. Just for fun, I tried a few days ago to run a small switching module I built 20 years or so ago, consisting of Marklin sectional, a few bits of Peco flextrack, and Marklin turnouts. Terrible. The contacts left and right of the frog, supposed to be a little bit flexible in order to be in contact with locomotives’ wheel flanges, are stuck in a mix of.... I don’t know what. Must be dust, maybe some remains of glue for ballast setting, etc. Next step for this module, trash basket and dump.
And in my opinion appearance is as important as reliability. That’s why I’m using MTL flex and Wright turnouts (unfortunately no more available) on my current layout. On the future one, it’l be a mix of MTL flex, probably Atlas flex as well, Atlas and Fast Tracks turnouts in the visible parts. Only in the hidden parts, I’m considering Rokuhan track and turnouts.
Dom
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Post by CNE1899 on Nov 18, 2020 16:08:37 GMT -5
Some well made points here. I am just starting out in Z, and I have been looking around, reading, and wondering. I have a source of free Marklin track, so I will start with that. But I think I will experiment with different makes on different layouts for now to see what I prefer. Thank all for all you input.
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Post by markm on Nov 19, 2020 13:55:47 GMT -5
Scott,
Welcome to Z and welcome to the forum.
As far as what track to use, everyone has an opinion. No Z scale track is bad, and every one has it's "personality". My opinion is that it depends on your skills and interests. If you want to get started quickly or have limited model railroad experience, your best solution will be sectional track. Märklin is a perfectly good track to use. As you gain experience in Z, you may move on to another sectional product or flex track, or stay with Märklin.
Mark
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Post by BAZman on Nov 21, 2020 15:01:23 GMT -5
Note update from Atlas in post 20495
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Post by markm on Nov 21, 2020 16:36:26 GMT -5
Note update from Atlas in post 424 Actually the post is: azlforum.com/post/20495. 424 was your post count. Thanks for the update. It seems my “personality” comment still applies. Everyone has had an issue with their turnouts at one time or another.
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rray
Fireman
Retired and model railroading till the last train out!
Posts: 87
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Post by rray on Nov 28, 2020 14:31:34 GMT -5
I really like the looks of the Atlas turnouts and flex. BUT, I really like the looks of MTL flex and Peter Wright turnouts too. All in all, I think the Peter Wright turnouts were the BEST EVER MADE in Z. They were much more robust than I could achieve with Fast Tracks, and looked as good as Atlas. There was 10 years where Fast Tracks was the only option, and I was down to my last 10 or 20 Peter Wright's, but fortunately Atlas stepped up, so I snapped 80 of the gen 1 version to replenish my stock of non-roadbed turnouts. I admit I tend to buy Z Scale more for it's looks than it's running characteristics, and fiddle with the running later. But I am also the kind of guy who can sit and look at the trains even without them running and enjoy them.
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Post by Commodore on Nov 28, 2020 16:00:39 GMT -5
I really like the looks of the Atlas turnouts and flex. BUT, I really like the looks of MTL flex and Peter Wright turnouts too. All in all, I think the Peter Wright turnouts were the BEST EVER MADE in Z. They were much more robust than I could achieve with Fast Tracks, and looked as good as Atlas. There was 10 years where Fast Tracks was the only option, and I was down to my last 10 or 20 Peter Wright's, but fortunately Atlas stepped up, so I snapped 80 of the gen 1 version to replenish my stock of non-roadbed turnouts. I admit I tend to buy Z Scale more for it's looks than it's running characteristics, and fiddle with the running later. But I am also the kind of guy who can sit and look at the trains even without them running and enjoy them. MTL and Atlas do LOOK the best! Like Robert, looks matter the most to me ...when I’m spending my money...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 16:58:18 GMT -5
To BAZman : concerning Rokuhan, the divergent rail on the "moving" part is straight, too, so I had some issues with my NH-GP9 (GP9 shell from ZScale Monster, now sold out, on GP35 chassis from Marsilius), it "tumbled" on the turnouts like an all-terrain vehicle. No issues with AZL. So I noticed that the wheels of this MTL were "wider", I sent the axles back to Mr. Marsilius, and he modified them ; since this time I don't have any more issues with this loco.
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