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Post by zman on Apr 27, 2020 14:57:25 GMT -5
I am new to railroad modeling. In my younger years a had Lionel O gauge trains. Now I have z scale. I joined NMRA and received my membership card and was looking at their website. I was noticing very little z scale standards and guidance. Is this on purpose or is it not the venue for z scale standards information?
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Post by husafreak on Apr 28, 2020 22:25:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty new to this too, trains, and Z scale. I get most of my information online here or on Trainboard. Trainboard is the busiest site. I don't know what you are looking for, standards and guidance? Maybe be a little more specific? Do you want to build a module? Anyway, I think if you ask specific questions here or there you will get answers. But Z scale is a little "under the radar" in the sense that other scales and hobby shops seem to ignore it. But it is alive and well enough among the modelers who practice it and the specialty distributors that sell Z scale items.
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Post by dazed on Apr 28, 2020 22:53:41 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure others have their opinions too but my take is that the NMRA probably isn't gonna benefit you much. Don't get me wrong...there are some great modelers involved with the NMRA and I met a lot of great guys (and girls) that became good friends when I was in the NMRA. (then as an n-scaler...and that wasn't much better than Z as far as their level of interest in the scale at that time) Also, if you ever get into the operations side of the hobby it's a good organization from that aspect. They have never provided standards such as proper weighting for freight cars, etc. (at least that I'm aware of) A lot of stuff can be extrapolated, of course. Things like minimum radius for good operation, track spacing...most of those dimensional things can be calculated out. Your best resources will be online forums or discovering other modelers near you that can share tips and expriences. Here are a few that I find helpful: 1. AZL Forum (of course) - Good for what it is...a manufacturer specific forum. 2. Trainboard (already mentioned). Probably the de facto Z-scale forum. I would definitely start there. 3. Z-Central Station - mostly for the live chat sessions they have...typically on Wed night and Sunday around noon. (Central time) There is also a forum and a variety of resources. 4. TheRailwire.net - Another forum, on the "advanced" side and currently not much Z specific content. (a lot of incredible Z modeling in years past though if you can dig it up from Search) A good place to see what can be done. 5. Facebook - Z Scale Model Trains for starters, you can quickly get overwhelmed with various modeling, detailing, prototype, and layout pages on Facebook. But yes, a good place to ask questions too. You should be able to get a pretty good experience in this hobby by using the above tools to learn and meet other modelers that have like-minded goals. Just don't forget to build models...it can be easy to get sucked into all of the forum antics and not get any real work done. I'm the poster child for that cautionary tale.  |
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Post by tjdreams on Apr 29, 2020 4:19:02 GMT -5
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Post by markm on Apr 29, 2020 4:37:43 GMT -5
Have you looked over the NMRA standards page? nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practicesS1.2 gives you track gauge and tolerance S2 coupler height and tolerance S4 wheel gauge, dimensions and tolerance. * MTL produces coupler height tool and also can check for rough wheel and track gauge. RP7 series has clearance information and for tables that don't have Z there is the clearance assistant calculator Also some practices such as RP11, minimum radius for equipment, have been redone in prototype dimensions, so it's just divide by 220. If you can read railroad French or German there are the European standards: www.morop.org/index.php/de/nem-normen.htmlwhich are similar to the NMRA documents with a little more explanation. These are the most important standards and practices for running model trains. What are you looking for? I will admit that standards for Z scale have not been a high priority. I'm still waiting for a response to a 2012 email to the standards group, which appears to have been disbanded in favor of a new NMRA small scale standards group. Frequently the attitude is : if it works... As Doug has mentioned there is a good deal of online information, and I'd include the Z scale forum on groups.io. Not very active but a library of older, mostly Marklin information. It is important to recognize that there can be questionable accuracy for information on these sites, either because it's gone stale, promotes an "urban legend" or is just plain wrong. There are also a couple of sites I can suggest to a beginner. Both are dated but have some good information. www.guidetozscale.com/index.html Online version of a book I learned Z from www.zscale.org/Hope this help, Mark |
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Post by Rob Albritton on Apr 29, 2020 6:34:26 GMT -5
Hi Mark,
I think the NMRA is a wonderful organization, and has its place in the world (DCC standards come to mind) but they have never really been especially helpful for Z scale in particular. I was actually once on the standards committee, but the well intended bureaucracy was not helpful getting anything done. We had the work done between AZL, MTL, and Marklin to update the NMRA standards to reflect the reality of what was being produced, but they wanted all sorts of testing, verification and certification. Between the three organizations we thought it was silly, time consuming, expensive, and unnecessary since we were already cooperating. The whole point of a third party standard it to harmonize efforts and interoperability. Between the three companies, we represented over 95% of Z being made, so we were achieving the standard goals without the NMRA. This was over a decade ago before Atlas started making track, but their track works well, so no problems.
The NMRA standards at the time were straight mathematical translations from larger scales. To NMRA’s credit, they seemed enthusiastic about updating them - it was when we actually tried to get anything done that the process broke down.
I have a copy of the standards that AZL builds to and can share if anyone is interested. They are fully interoperable with other Z manufactures.
Hope that history lesson helps
-Rob(A)
AZL
In the meantime, the NMRA’s Z scale standards are functional, and basically interoperable with MTL, AZL and Marklin, but by no means are they mandatory, or even especially useful.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Apr 29, 2020 6:41:16 GMT -5
1. AZL Forum (of course) - Good for what it is...a manufacturer specific forum. Actually, we set up this forum to be manufacture neutral. We strongly welcome conversations about any and all Z scale producers. We do ask that you keep the conversation to Z scale, not attack one another, and not turn it into eBay 2.0, but other than that, I love talking about MTL, Marklin, Rokuhan, Atlas, and anyone else out there. Cheers,. -Rob |
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Post by husafreak on Apr 29, 2020 11:59:06 GMT -5
"Actually, we set up this forum to be manufacture neutral. We strongly welcome conversations about any and all Z scale producers."
So true Rob and thank you for that! In the beginning of my Z scale involvement I spent months here only and learned a lot about all aspects of the hobby. But I always wondered how you guys felt about it.
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Post by BAZman on Apr 29, 2020 22:29:43 GMT -5
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rray
Fireman
Retired and model railroading till the last train out!
Posts: 87 
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Post by rray on Apr 30, 2020 20:35:02 GMT -5
Are there an Z Scale Master Model Railroaders? I know Tom Knapp is an MMR, but he models N Scale with Z Gauge track, Nn3, butI don't think the NMRA has any Z Scale MMR's yet. I bet once they get a few, and Z Scalers start participating in the NMRA more, maybe someone will find way through the bureaucracy and publish a full set of Z Standards and recommended practices.
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Post by Rob Albritton on May 1, 2020 8:13:23 GMT -5
Are there an Z Scale Master Model Railroaders? I know Tom Knapp is an MMR, but he models N Scale with Z Gauge track, Nn3, butI don't think the NMRA has any Z Scale MMR's yet. I bet once they get a few, and Z Scalers start participating in the NMRA more, maybe someone will find way through the bureaucracy and publish a full set of Z Standards and recommended practices. I just took a look at the MMR requirments. I think you qualify! Maybe even I do. But there is no way I want to spend the time doing all the paperwork and attending events just to get that certificate! I think I'll just stick to doing all this for my original purpose: self satisfaction. I might even print up my own certificate. |
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Post by dazed on May 1, 2020 9:38:48 GMT -5
I think a couple of guys on The Railwire could probably qualify too, although Z isn't their primary focus anymore, at least at the moment. But yeah, your last two points, one-thousand percent.  My certificate would say " Mediocre-to- Occasionally- Sligh TLY-above-average-and- MASTER-beer-drinker MODEL RAILROADER"  aka the MMMR ... "Mostly Master Model Railroader".  |
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Post by markm on May 1, 2020 12:38:36 GMT -5
Rob and Robert: a couple of years back I looked into MMR. At the time there were no Z specific standards for the program which leads me to assume no Z MMR. After a bit of discussion with the guy in charge of the program, we came up with a track laying requirements which was basically a 5' Z-Bend Track module, properly documented and examined to NMRA requirements. Z scale would actually be easier as there are fewer NMRA practices including Z than for larger scales. Beyond that, there is the promotion module which I know both of you have at least partially satisfied. What hung me up was the leadership and the time that would be required for meeting, committees, etc. I do feel the program is a bit outdated as it doesn't consider the 21th century with the internet such as contributions to forums like this and the maker world where a couple of guys can create some like AZL.
Getting back to zman, I believe that the NMRA documents I mentioned above pretty much cover the needs of the typical modeler. Yeah there is a lot of information there, but I find they are generally more for the makers.
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Post by BAZman on May 1, 2020 15:14:57 GMT -5
I'm going to get the Achievement Award, which is a limited subset, mostly making and doing parts. The MMR's hardest part is writing several articles, doing several classes and hardest: being involved with groups like regional NMRA at a higher level (Prez, Director, Secretary, Finance or close to that level), for some period of time. IIRC. I'm trying to figure out what I might have done for the last part.
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Post by dazed on May 1, 2020 17:33:54 GMT -5
I'm going to get the Achievement Award, which is a limited subset, mostly making and doing parts. The MMR's hardest part is writing several articles, doing several classes and hardest: being involved with groups like regional NMRA at a higher level (Prez, Director, Secretary, Finance or close to that level), for some period of time. IIRC. I'm trying to figure out what I might have done for the last part. I had a couple of years as the Region Photography chair which I seem to recall counted toward those numbers. It's been awhile but I was close to getting many of those oddball requirements out of the way. I've been involved in ops (even dispatching a couple of times!) which is another aspect. Still had some of the modeling stuff to complete but that was pre-kids/pre-divorce when I had money and time to do more modeling so I probably could have achieved it. But it would have been more of a "paper MMR" which seems cheap to me...not my style. And like Rob said, that's just too much like work, and not really that important to me. (and not to mention I'm not involved in the NMRA anymore.) Don't get me wrong, I applaud those that have achieved it. It is a great accomplishment in my mind. |
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aka the MMMR ... "Mostly Master Model Railroader". 
