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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 5, 2019 18:20:04 GMT -5
Let the games begin!!! While the grey trucks are appropriate prior to 1952 and to match MTL, silver trucks have had a longer life and the Wabash car, which would have been post-1954, would have never had grey trucks.” My research shows: “Aluminum Paint on Passenger Car Trucks On June 18, 1958, D. S. Neuhart issued instructions that "whenever passenger equipment is shopped or trucks are removed from cars for any other purpose, present paint should be completely removed and trucks repainted with one coat of Chromate Primer CS-22 No. 38 followed by two coats of aluminum paint CS-22 No. 28." So In fact, the first silver trucks would have not appeared before June 1958. The Wabash Pullman National Homes was built in 1955, thus it would have been painted with grey trucks as that was the standard at the time of its construction www.nwhs.org/qna/WabashCars.pdfHowever: UP started painting their Locomotive trucks as early as 1953 in an aluminum color. The passenger cars did not start getting aluminum until 1958, so this may be part of the confusion. In summary, I think I got it right!  |
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Post by markm on Feb 6, 2019 8:41:09 GMT -5
Interesting.
Your source was easily verified, so I have no doubt of it.
However, my reference came through investigating the SP section of the Overland. My notes have aluminum trucks as part of the March 1952 instructions to partner railroads regarding the decision to paint all secondary trains Armour Yellow. So it's something I'll have to dig out.
Mark
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Post by markm on Feb 8, 2019 15:34:41 GMT -5
Let the games begin!!! On June 18, 1958, D. S. Neuhart issued instructions that "whenever passenger equipment is shopped or trucks are removed from cars for any other purpose, present paint should be completely removed and trucks repainted with one coat of Chromate Primer CS-22 No. 38 followed by two coats of aluminum paint CS-22 No. 28." So In fact, the first silver trucks would have not appeared before June 1958. The Wabash Pullman National Homes was built in 1955, thus it would have been painted with grey trucks as that was the standard at the time of its construction www.nwhs.org/qna/WabashCars.pdfHowever: UP started painting their Locomotive trucks as early as 1953 in an aluminum color. The passenger cars did not start getting aluminum until 1958, so this may be part of the confusion. In summary, I think I got it right! Rob, all, I've had the chance to review a number of images over the past few days. It's been interesting and I've come to an interim view that we're both right and wrong. There are images dating from 1955 that show the blunt-end domed lounges (ex 9002 and 9006) delivered with aluminum bearing caps (unpainted?) and running on aluminum trucks. Also a western series sleeper on aluminum. A number of other cars with 1954-1955 delivery show the aluminum caps. Several unidentified cars on the 1955 Overland with silver trucks. However, I've been unable to find any of the cars AZL has modeled with aluminum trucks prior to 1959: just grey and grey with aluminum bearing caps. SP appears to have never painted trucks aluminum. Into the 1960s their trucks where either gray or frequently black. Several cars shopped in 1959 (UP 5003) & 1962 (dorm/steam car) continued to run on grey trucks. Mark |
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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 8, 2019 16:03:15 GMT -5
Information on the Lightweight cars, and the prototypes we used for the tooling:
Sleeper 4-4-2:
Pullman Plan 4069 4-4-2 sleeping car were first delivered to the Santa Fe in January of 1938. This was only two Years after Pullman built Progress and Forward – two of the earliest prototypes of light weight streamlined cars. Our 4-4-2 (4 Compartments, 4 Bedrooms and 2 Drawing Rooms) is based on Plan 4069B Lot 6540, delivered to the PRR and NYC in mid 1938. The Plan 4069 4-4-2 was widely used, with over 125 produced.
Sleeper 6-6-4:
Pullman Plan 4099 6-6-4 sleeping cars were first delivered to the Rock Island, Illinois Central and Southern Pacific in April of 1938. These early lightweight streamlined passenger cars had 6 Roomettes, 6 Open Sections, and 4 Double Bedrooms. Each Section had 2 small windows for the upper berth to alleviate claustrophobia. Our Pullman 6-6-4 is based on Plan 4099, Lot 6669 with over 150 produced.
Observation:
Pullman Plan 4082, Lot 6567 “American Milemaster“ is the prototype. This experimental Sleeping – Buffet – Lounge – Observation car had a 2-1-1 configuration (2 Double Bedrooms, 1 Compartment and 1 Drawing Room.) It was built for display at the 1939 World’s Fair in New York, but pressed into service with the UP in 1940 as part of the replacement set for the wrecked City of San Francisco. It later served with the SP, Rock Island, and EMD as locomotive test car ET800.
Mail / RPO:
The Mail / RPO car is based on ACF Lot 3035. These cars had a 60’ standard USPS Postal Apartment, and a 20’ section that could be used for Mail Storage or Baggage. These cars were delivered in September of 1949 for the C&NW and the UP for use on the City of San Francisco. The C&NW cars were sold to the GN in 1964. Many similar Mail / RPO cars were used throughout North America.
Dome:
ACF Lot 4097 is the prototype. These dome coaches were delivered to the UP beginning in December of 1954 for use on the City of Portland and the Challenger. They had 36 leg rest seats, and could seat an additional 24 in the dome. Below the dome were two large Men’s and Women’s Lounges. These cars were later sold to the Alaska Railroad in 1971, and the Auto-Train in 1973. Similar dome cars were used extensively across the West and Mid-West.
Baggage:
The 71’5” St. Louis Car company Lot 1821 baggage car was built for the Union Pacific in 1962. It included a desk and enclosed lavatory for the on-board baggage agent. These cars were built for general service and are an excellent representation of hundreds of baggage cars built by ACF and St. Louis for railroads throughout North America. These particular cars later worked for the Alaska Railroad and Amtrak.
Coach:
The Union Pacific ordered fifty Pullman Plan 7617 Coaches with 44 leg rest seats as a part of Lot 6844. These cars were delivered in the summer of 1950 and used in various Overland Route trains. The cars were made of smooth side aluminum using the P-S girder construction technique, with Frigidaire air conditioning and disc brakes. These coaches were typical of the streamline era.
Diner:
Chicago & Northwestern ordered 4 dining cars in ACF Lot 3040 that were delivered in April and May of 1949 for use on the City of Los Angeles, City of Portland, City of San Francisco and City of St. Louis. These Dining cars had 48 seats and separate doors to provision the kitchen and pantry. Because of the complexity and expense of the kitchen equipment, these cars were well maintained and sold to Amtrak and the Alaska Railroad. Some remain in service today.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 8, 2019 16:12:55 GMT -5
I've had the chance to review a number of images over the past few days. It's been interesting and I've come to an interim view that we're both right and wrong. There are images dating from 1955 that show the blunt-end domed lounges (ex 9002 and 9006) delivered with aluminum bearing caps (unpainted?) and running on aluminum trucks. Also a western series sleeper on aluminum. A number of other cars with 1954-1955 delivery show the aluminum caps. Several unidentified cars on the 1955 Overland with silver trucks. However, I've been unable to find any of the cars AZL has modeled with aluminum trucks prior to 1959: just grey and grey with aluminum bearing caps. SP appears to have never painted trucks aluminum. Into the 1960s their trucks where either gray or frequently black. Several cars shopped in 1959 (UP 5003) & 1962 (dorm/steam car) continued to run on grey trucks. Mark The funny thing about all of these cars is trying to lock down details. Paint color is one of the most difficult subjects. You would not think so given the amount of official documentation regarding what gets painted when and how, but the truth of the matter is that the men in the field doing the work frequently either did not have the orders from headquarters, or had to improvise to keep them rolling. A wonderful example of this cake from the account of a retired worker at Santa Fe who said his boss didn’t really care about the exact color of navy blue on the locomotives they serviced. The sun faded all colors quickly, and he was judged on his budget, so just get the cheapest dark blue in stock and use that. Photos are even worse. In the wrong light, grey and look silver, and vice versa. Black and white photography is even more difficult. Old color photos were not known for their ability to capture the correct color well. And to top it off, dates on the photos are frequently wrong. I try to use manufacturer delivery photos whenever possible, as they were as correct as you can get. I also try to use color drift cards when I can, as they are as good as it gets today. But sometimes, I still have to do a best guess. We do as much research as we can. I know we probably miss something somewhere, but trust me: we do put in the hours and effort to get it right. Enjoy! |
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Post by markm on Feb 8, 2019 16:35:51 GMT -5
The funny thing about all of these cars is trying to lock down details. Paint color is one of the most difficult subjects. You would not think so given the amount of official documentation regarding what gets painted when and how, but the truth of the matter is that the men in the field doing the work frequently either did not have the orders from headquarters, or had to improvise to keep them rolling. As I've said before: if it rolls, it goes. I fully agree. The aluminum bearing cover was a real trap. It makes it seem like the trucks are silver. Even though there are many builder images by the LW era, I probably looked at 100 images to find 6 that I was willing to call aluminum trucks from any era. This was just a fun little project for my snow day. |
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Post by markm on Feb 10, 2019 11:32:26 GMT -5
Many thanks for providing details on your selections for these cars. It's good when a manufacturer provides the information necessary to determine the era of their designs.
Looking at the descriptions, two things jump out at me. First, the west coast TTG would be very appropriate, although I guess for now, that train has left the station. Second, this stable of cars is just begging for an early slant nose E unit or PAs.
Mark
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Post by cwrr on Feb 14, 2019 23:44:31 GMT -5
Are these selling out?! Looks like they're all going VERY fast!!  |
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Post by ztrack on Feb 15, 2019 8:05:06 GMT -5
Yes they are selling out. The following are out of stock here at Ztrack's Global Distribution Center:
73408-1 UP Dome 7000 Lightweight Passenger Car
73408-2 UP Dome 7004 Lightweight Passenger Car
73408-3 UP Dome 7009 Lightweight Passenger Car
73508-1 UP Diner 4809 Lightweight Passenger Car
73508-2 UP Diner 4811 Lightweight Passenger Car
73708-0 UP Coach UNION PACIFIC Lightweight Passenger Car
73708-1 UP Coach 5421 Lightweight Passenger Car
73708-2 UP Coach 5437 Lightweight Passenger Car
73808-1 UP Observation 1575 Lightweight Passenger Car
73808-2 UP Observation 1576 Lightweight Passenger Car
73908-1 UP Mail Mail UNION PACIFIC UNITED STATES MAIL RAILWAY POST OFFICE 5900 Lightweight Passenger Car
73908-2 UP Mail Mail UNION PACIFICUNITED STATES MAIL RAILWAY POST OFFICE 5902 Lightweight Passenger Car
And we are already seeing strong interest in the Amtrak and VIA cars just released.
Rob
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Post by herbmopac on Jun 9, 2019 7:27:57 GMT -5
For many of us who are most interested in passenger trains, it would be nice if there could be a release schedule so as to get a monitary loan ir place and be prepared....I realize that other considerations are important; however, I just spent $1300 on the Empire Builder....and still to come are ATSF, NP, CB&Q, NYC, PPR, and MISSOURI PACIFIC (Colorado Eagle)...just a thought! We should all be appreciative of the great work of AZL.....thanks!
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Post by markm on Jun 9, 2019 12:03:11 GMT -5
Yeah it would be nice if there were some sort of quarterly update, something like "New for Summer..." or "Coming this Fall..."
Herb I would point out that the ATSF, CB&Q along with my favorite WP were all Budd cars. That's a whole different product line we haven't heard much about of late.
Mark
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Post by herbmopac on Jun 10, 2019 17:57:01 GMT -5
Today, I received my EMPIRE BUILDER passenger cars and I would like everyone to know that they are absolutely beautiful and with GN locomotive 353 they run my layout wonderfully.....I could not be more pleased.....I have airbrushed N-scale cars from KATO and what I have now from AZL, in z-scale, just blows me away.....AZL has produced outstanding lightweight passenger cars...anyone out there who is comtemplating getting into z-scale, go AZL and now is the time to do it, especially if you like passenger trains (streamliners of yesterday)......THANKS AZL, a job well done.....this message is for real and, no I don't have any stock in AZL!
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Post by Rob Albritton on Jun 10, 2019 18:48:59 GMT -5
AZL has produced outstanding lightweight passenger cars...anyone out there who is comtemplating getting into z-scale, go AZL and now is the time to do it, especially if you like passenger trains (streamliners of yesterday)......THANKS AZL, a job well done From all of us here: THANK YOU!!! |
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Post by ericmcgrath on Jun 18, 2019 17:21:13 GMT -5
Are there other sleeper configurations in the offing? Frisco, L&N, Katy and MoPac predominantly used 14-4, 12-3, or 10-6 sleepers out of St. Louis more than 6-6-4s or 4-4-2s.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Jun 18, 2019 19:26:15 GMT -5
Are there other sleeper configurations in the offing? Frisco, L&N, Katy and MoPac predominantly used 14-4, 12-3, or 10-6 sleepers out of St. Louis more than 6-6-4s or 4-4-2s. No, just the 6-6-4 and 4-4-2 ... for now! There was a ton of tooling for the lightweights, and we do expect to do more models in the future. I went a little too far with sleeping cars during the heavyweight project (8-1-2, 6-3, 12-1 and 10-1-2) so dialed it back a bit for the lightweights. There is also the issue that many of the lightweights were ordered after pullman was broken up, so each railroad had some customization to the designs. That means more models, and shorter runs - a bad scenario when you have to tool each individual model. I went with the 6-6-4 and 4-4-2 because they were early designs, thus used in standard configuration by more railroads. Also don't forget that all of our lightweights are "smooth sides" - I have my eye on some of the corrugated / fluted/ rib side cars as well. A 10-6 fluted side works with many popular railroads, but that is for a future project! Enjoy! |
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While the grey trucks are appropriate prior to 1952 and to match MTL, silver trucks have had a longer life and the Wabash car, which would have been post-1954, would have never had grey trucks.”
