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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 11, 2013 20:45:20 GMT -5
After spending several hours over two days working with these autoracks I have come to the conclusion that I am simply waisting my time. When I take two of the older generation autoracks and attempt to connect them, they go together with very little effort. However, when I try to connect the newer generation autoracks, there is no way in hell, I can get them to couple, I have studied this from every angle and the mechanics just don't match. On the older generation of racks, the knuckles of the couplers tend to push each other aside just enough to allow them to fit inside one another much like the fingers of a handshake. However, this does not happen with the new racks. The knuckles are far too rigid and allow no movement of either coupler for them to slide into each other. I have to lift one end of the car, and slide the coupler down inside that of the next car. So much for auto latch. However, when I attempt to connect the older racks with the new ones, they will connect, but in examining the mechanics under a magnifying glass, it's the knuckles of the older racks that are giving way enough for the new rack knuckles to slide into place and coupler. I am extremely disappointed. I expected something much better from AZL after all the hype about the new and improved Auto Latch Coupler. I'm not even going to get into the weekness of these couplers and their performance on grades. I've already gone through that earlier in this thread. I'm going to be spending a great deal of money over the coming months to change out AZL couplers on the tankers and hoppers to those used by Full Throttle which from my testing, hold together much better on grades and function more prototypically then AZL. I may even change a few to MTL couplers although they are not the greatest either. But I don't know what to do with these autoracks. I guess I just use the origianl 8 I bought when AZL first brought them out, and these newer ones I will either not use, or just put on a siding somewhere strictly for show. It's a forgone conclusion that trying to run them in a consist much less couple them is just two frustrating. AZL, you guys have to do more research and come up with a better coupler.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 8, 2013 21:28:11 GMT -5
Rob.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I have been doing some experimenting with the cars in question and I've discovered some interesting results. 1. When I coupled all my 23000 gallon tankers together of which I have 16, and ran them as one consist on my flat oval, there were three of them that separated from the rest of the pack. These were at various location in the consist. The first thing I did was to turn all three, end for end and then started again. This time all but one made it around the oval without separation. The tanker that separated, I moved it to another spot in the consist and did another revolution. This tanker separated from the car ahead of it again, so I turned it end for end and did another revolution. Same thing. I examined the coupler and could see nothing visibly wrong with it that would cause it to separate. Oh, and I should mention the separation was never at the same place in the track. So I took a chance and put it right next to my new GP38 and after one revolution, pulling all 16 tankers, it held. I did two more revolutions and on the second time around the same tanker separated from the engine. This time I took this tanker and placed it right at the end of the consits and tried again. This time I went 6 full revolutions without a separation. Now to my way of thinking, if all these couplers are made the same way from the same factory run, they should all react the same way. They shoud either all come apart or all stay together. 2. Now I decided to give the grade a try and after starting the consist with the cars in exactly the same position as they were on the oval from a dead stop, I found that that 7 of the tankers made it only 1/4 of the way up the grade before they separated. So over the course of several hours I turned, switched, and otherwise moved tankers about in the consist to see if I could get them all to make it up the grade. I'm sorry to report that after all of that, I could still only get a maximum of 9 tankers to make it up the grade before the rest separated from the consist. My conclusion is: the couplers are too week to hold that much weight on a 2% grade over that long a distance. They just can't do it. 3. Another interesting discovery I made was, as with the auto racks, the tankers will not couple on their own. When I put two tankers together with the couplers just about to touch, and then while holding one stationary, and nudging the other back with my fingers, the couplers should connect. They do not. I tried many times using different amounts of force, but these damn couplers either push each other out of the way or butt up against each other like two bricks. I have to lift one end of the car and slide one coupler inside the other in order for them to coupler. 4. I found that by exerting even the slightest amount of outward pressure on both cars, the couplers separated with very little effort. If these things are supposed to be the best couplers in the world, should they not offer some resistance to being pulled apart? This would explain why they can't support the total weight of a 16 car consist. Most disappointing.
Now for the hoppers. I have about 12 of AZL's hoppers the rest are a mixture of Intermountain, MTL and Full Throttle. I find I don't have a problem at all with my Full Throttle cars since they are outfitted with the Bowser Bucklers as they are called. Even when I put them in a consist with the Intermountain and/or AZL's I get little or no separation. The separation I do get is always with AZL's cars. Using the same methods as I did with the tankers, I found that by turning them end for end, or placing them in different positions, I get less separation. But again the problem with coupling occurs when I try to connect the newer AZL cars together with each other, or when tring to connect them with Intermountain cars. They do not want to couple on their own. I can manage to get some of the Intermountain to connect to AZL hoppers if I use enough force to push them together but in doing so I have broken a few couplers and have had to replace them with spares. I can connect any of the AZL hoppers together with the Full Throttle with no problem at all, but in doing so and watching the action very carefully from above, it seems the Full Throttles Bowser couplers are giving way enough to allow the AZL couplers to connect successfully. It's the same with the FT and the IM's. I ran a consist of 35 mixed hoppers and to my surprise, they all stayed together except where I had more then 3 of AZL's hoppers together. Separation occured. After turning end for end the results were the same. So I moved them to other parts of the train and again these same cars separated at various points on the oval. Now came time for the grade test and I found that trying to pull all the AZL's up the grade was pointless. I only got maybe halfway up before the hoppers came apart. When I interspersed FT and IM, I was able to pull the entire consist of 35 hoppers almost completely up the grade. The AZL hopper that was in position 30 separated from the rest of the consist. I turned it end for end and this time it barely got started up the grade before separation. So I swapped it out for an IM and placed this AZL hopper at the tail end. It separated even though it was the last car. Now go figure that one. I was now very pissed off so I took this car, and swapped out the trucks and couplers with a pair of Bowsers. Then I placed this car between two FT cars about half way in the consist and gave it another go. The entire consist made it up and beyond the grade. Now from all of this, you can draw your own conslusion but one thing has become cyrstal clear to me. AZL's Auto Latch Couplers have some issues that need to be addressed and one of them is their weekness. It would appear that on a flat surface or oval, they will hold together so long as they are mixed with other hoppers such as FT or IM.s They will even work well with MTL hoppers even though they tend to ride higher. It's on grades that the real problems occur. The same problems occur with AZL hoppers as with the tankers and auto racks in as far as coupling is concerned. I still have to lift one end of the car to slide the coupler inside the other. This should not be. If these couplers are supposed to be so good, then why do they not connect when they are pushed together with even the most gentlest of pressure with one's fingers? Tomorrow I am going back to the autoracks to give them some further study. I suspect by then you will be fed up with hearing about the couplers. Maybe you guys will have to rethink the design of the couplers because frankly, something isn't woking the way it was supposed to.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 6, 2013 11:56:53 GMT -5
Rob. I didn't realize that Intermountain uses AZL's Roller bearing trucks. But the problem persists when I couple an AZL tanker, to any of the IM's cars. There is still separation. I will say this though. In order to combat this situation with the tankers and IM or FT cars, I experiment by turning the tankers end for end, or placing them in another location in the consist. This sometimes solves the separation problem so long as I don't put more then 4 tankers together in the same spot. Last night after I sent my explanation of what was happening to you, I got to thinking that there may be a simpilar way to explain what is happening here, but I want to do some experimentation with these cars before I put fourth this explanation and it hinges around a left handed handshake if that makes any sense. I'll be back to you once I've completed my experiments
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 5, 2013 21:01:23 GMT -5
Hi Rob. Thanks for helping if you can. I've seen these videos before and I admit they are impressive. But to my woes, let's take it one at a time. Yes the grade is 2& using Woodland Scenics 2% inclines. It is a steady climb over 18 ft. plus a little bit. Yes there are two turnouts but one is at the very bottom before the grade begins and the other is two thirds of the way up the grade near the top. There are one S bend with a 12" transitition piece between the ends, and another 13 degree curve about half way up. There is another 30 degree turn at the top but it is 2 ft from the top of the grade. The couplers just seem to be opening. I've watched these during a climb from track level and the couplers don't flex enough to ride up and out of each other. Yes there is a tiny bit of up and down movement, but I get that everywhere on my layout. All these autoracks, the 23000 gallon tankers, and all of the hoppers are having this problem but let me stress, it is the newer gneration of cars. The older cars I don't have much of a problem with except with the autoracks. As I said before, I have both new and older generation of the autoracks and they do work better, but still anything over 5 cars on the grade, and they come apart. It doesn't which of the cars as I've turned them end for end, placed them in different order, and still they come apart and it doesn't matter where on the grade it is, sometimes within the first foot of the grade, sometimes half way up, sometimes just a quarter of the way. But never will they all make it to the top and beyond. Coming down is no problem because the weight and gravity keeps them together As for the rest of the layout, it is never in the same spot twice. It could be anywhere. Also like I said, I can pull any of these cars apart with my fingers with little effort. It seems all I have to do is touch them and they uncouple. Here is something I have noticed. When I compare the couplers on my older autoracks to the newer versions, looking straight down from the top of them and watching the action as I put them together, then knuckle on the older version closes when it connects to that of another older autorack. Yet when I try to connect a new version to an old, the knuckle on the new version does not close and the knuckle of the olderversion has nothing to grasp. I have looked at these close up under a magnifying glass and the newer auto latch seem to be all one solid piece with no moving parts outside the box. On the other hand the coupler of my older autoracks seems to have a hinged outer piece that flexes and grips another coupler like it. In short, the couplers on the new cars don't close on themselves. This seems to be why I can't coupler them by moving the cars together. They won't latch. They just butt up against one another or push each other out of the way but they do not latch. This is why I have to lift one end of the car and slide the coupler inside that of the next car. Now I just got 6 of the HW passenger cars and have been test running them on my layout as well and low and behold, I had the same problem with two of those cars. On the flat oval, two of these passenger cars uncoupled on the curves. After numerous attempts at a full revolution, these same two cars uncoupled at the same spot on both the curves. As and experiment, I turned both end for end and put them in a different order in my consist and took another revolution. Guess what? They did not come apart. Problem solved by turning the cars around and putting them elsewhere in the consist. But to do this with the others is hopeless. I don't want to bring the competition into this, but I don't have this problem with my Intermountain cars and they seem to have the same desgine coupler as your auto latch. I also don't have this problem with this consistency with the MTL couplers either. I can run a train of 30 mixed weight cars of either MTL, Intermountain, or both up that same grade, and not one will separate from the others. Oh yes and my Full Throttle cars don't give me any problems either. Here is something else I just remembered. I have run a consist of Full Throttle and Intermountain cars together with AZL cars and I almost always have separation problems with the AZL cars when joined with the FY or IM's. More so with the MTL's. You get the idea I'm sure. I think if you take and older autorack and a new one and look at the two of them from the top, or experiemt with coupling and pulling, you'll see what I mean. I have to tell you, I'm thinking of trying to design some kind of clip to put over these couplers to hold them together particularly on this grade which is the very focal point of my entire layout. I have to do something because it's hopeless like it is now.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 5, 2013 11:54:58 GMT -5
I am not at all happy with the performance of the AZL Auto Latch Couplers, particularly on the bi and tri level autoracks. I have purchased several of these over the last 8 months and these AUTO LATCH COUPLERS don't live up to their hype. Oh they look fancy enough to be sure, but as for being auto latch...forget it. I have tired many different methods to get these cars to latch together from gentle force with engines, to outright severe banging them together and the result is always the same. They will not latch. In order to hook these auto racks to each other or any other AZL car, I have to phsyically lift the end of the car and slide the couplers inside one another. Even with that, there is no gurantee they will stay together. Another problem I have with them is their inherant weekness. They are not strong enough to pull more them 6 without coming apart. I have tried running consists of up to 15 of these autoracks, and while they might get a few inches, that's it before at least half separate from the rest and that is being run on a perfectly flat table top on an 8 ft oval with no excessive curves and no grades. They just will not stay together. Trying to run these autoracks on grades of 2% for any length longer then 18 inches is impossible. I have such a grade that covers a length of just over 18 feet, and on the upgrade, I can manage to get 4 or 5 racks taking the grade but that's it. the rest just come apart. If I manually couple them and continue up the grade, they will separate again. Now these cars are all supposed to be the same weight so I would thing that being so, there would be no problem with the couplers holding on. NOPE! It is extremely disappointing because in purchasing all these autoracks, I was hoping to run trains of up to 20 of them, but no matter what I do, beyond 4 or 5 cars, they just won't keep connected. Now to be fair, I have a mix of the older version racks as well as the new, and the older versions seem to hold together much better, but even with them, I still can't pull more the a few up a 2% grade. I've even tried interspersing my older racks amounst the new one's The results are the same. And this problem isn't limited to just the autoracks, I have found that all of AZL's newer productions of cars with these auto latch couplers are experiencing the same problem. Expecially the 23000 gallon tankers and all the hoppers. They are just too week to manage the weight of a long train of 20 or more cars, even with the heaviest cars up front and the lighter ones in the rear. It's so frustrating. I can take any two AZL cars with these auto latch couplers, put them together and with very little effort, pull them apart with my fingers. There is little or no resistance at all. They just don't hold. One more thing. I bought a brand new AZL 3 bay hopper from my dealer and when I took it out of it's box, took it out of it's plastic coccoon, and tried to connect it with other cars, I discovered that one of the couplers was on backwards. In other words the knuckle was faceing the wrong direction. Instead of being opposite to the one at the other end of the car, it was facing the same way. No wonder it wouldn't connect to the next car. Luckily I had a spare truck/coupler set and I just changed it out, but this should not have left the factory like this. Obviously this car was not inspected before being packaged. Seems like a quality control issue here that needs to be dealt with. To sum up, the AZL auto latch couplers do not live up to their name. These cars should couple with little or no effort and by using engine power only. Having to couple them by physically manipulating them defeats the whole purpose of auto latch couplers. In my opinion, these couplers need to be made stronger and they need to function the way they are supposed to, otherwise the name auto latch coupler should be changed to you latch coupler.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 4, 2013 11:25:17 GMT -5
Rob.
Here's an idea to consider. On the diaphrams, what if the joining faceplates were magnatized somehow? It wouldn't need to be two much, just enough to hold the cars together, yet give the flexibility to make it around any turning radius without throwing each other off the track. Or instead of using drawbars, why not some kind of butt connection also magnatized. These could be attached to the bottom of the diaphram as one integrated unit. But again they would have to strong enough to be self supporting, yet extremely flexible. Now to separate them, you could develope a specialized tool such as a very, very micro thin flat iron of some kind, that could be slid down between the diagharms and by turning it sideways, you separate the them just enough that the magnets don't attract.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 2, 2013 11:57:55 GMT -5
Mark: The diaphrams on the HW cars DO work but to a limited degree. It is this limitation and the length of the couplers that prevents them from functioning like the prototype. As for the steps, I have examined the two HW I have now and run them togetheer and watched them closely on curves and such, and frankly I can't see the problem you describe. Perhaps I'm looking at it from a different perspective, but they really do look OK to me. Yes I know it looks unusual to have the steps moulded to the truck instead of the body, but I can see Rob's point regarding tolerances and clearance on turns. It is an unfortunate fact that sometimes with these little grabbers, you have to sacrifice astetics for functionality. It may not look like the real think, but if it functions then you have to go with what works. Rob: regarding the diaphrams, I understand to a point the problem with mass production of these and making them work properly expecially on curves, BUT having said that, I have seen many diaphrams on the larger scales and they seem to work as designed. I've also seen after market repros of stick on diaphrams for the larger scales and they work well to althought the distance between cars is extended becuase of the coupler placement. Drawbars would greatly decrease the distance between these HW's but then that raises the qustion, how do you uncouple and couple them? I don't know. It just seems that trying to be prototypical right down to the last rivet and handrails, in this scale, has it's drawbacks. To me, one tends to sacrifice too much in Z Scale in order to make it work. Until someone comes up with a better way, we are stuck with it.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 1, 2013 17:58:33 GMT -5
Mark.
If you are looking for a steam generator car, try going to the passenger cars of Canadian Pacific. I think you'll find and excellent example of a steam generator car. Essentially, it looks like a regular 40 ft boxcar with a single door in each side, 4 x 4 loovers 2 to a side, and a man door minus the diaphram in each end. They also show examples of express refrigerated cars both of which were coloured, lettered and included in CP's passenger trains. Of course that's the old colour scheme. They sort of disappeared when CP went to the aluminum cars with the red stripe at the roofline. As for the sleepers, I just got a bunch of new passenger cars, and as I wrote to Rob and told him, it would have been more prototypical to have the diaphrams between each car meet. Of course the couplers themselves would have to be shortened so that the end of the knuckle did not protrude past the end of the diaphram when they are extended. The new heavyweights do have a movable diaphram now, but the way the trucks and couplers are now, they are too far apart to look realistic. As I suggested to Rob, the diaphrams should be comletely self supporting but at the same time be flexible enough to bend even on the tightest turns without throwing the cars off the track. Perhaps they could be attached somehow to the couplers themselves. As for the stairs, they look ok to me.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Apr 1, 2013 9:56:29 GMT -5
As someone who has experienced a great many problems with body mounted couplers expecially on the BUDD'S, this could create problems especially on turns up to 45 degrees or on S bends with no transitition piece between them. There is a tendancey for the lead car to throw the trainling car off the track because there is just not enough swing. If you are intent on switching to body mounted couplers, be sure you got large enought coupler boxes to accommodate extra swing or you will have derailments everytime. I've heard it mentioned that replacing couplers with draw bars, eliminates this problem. That's all well and good, but how do you disconnect cars? I'd stick with truck mounted couplers.
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