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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 16:55:32 GMT -5
Hello everybody. I am writing from France and want first to apologize for some "errors" in my English.
In order to decide which version I should build, some questions about the vintage version (my preferred one) : It would be located in the Eastern part of the USA, with some green hills, in the 50's-60's "pre-Amtrak" era and operated with two NH-Budd-RDC's coupled together, running in two directions, a passenger (or better commuter) train with 2 Pennsy E8's in dual head configuration, and a freight train with a Pennsy GP7. Now the questions : - Can I leave the original front coupling with plow on the second E8, if the minimum radius is about 15-16" ? Or MUST I use the "alternative" truck ... without plow ? - Are the AZL-Pennsy heavyweight cars (Tuscan red) appropriate for the choosen era, and what's about an open observation car ? Anachronism(s) ? - Which cars for my freight train ? I was thinking of 4 MTL's "Reading" gondolas with iron load ... Or what ? The problem is that on Wikipedia You can find almost everything about locomotives, but almost nothing about the date when some cars were no longer used.
For the "modern" version I would choose the Amtrak-era (2016) in the Rockies, with Superliners and a P42, the "Ringling-Bros" train (shortened version ! ), cars by MTL, with one (or two) UP-GP38-2, and two freight trains, each with 4 cars, coil cars and beer reefers from UP, run by an UP-GP38-2 and an UP-SD70M.
Thanks for any answer(s)
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Post by cwrr on Jan 12, 2017 23:17:39 GMT -5
Welcome to Z-scale, where almost any dream you have, you can make a reality in small spaces!! I for one, model the Milwaukee Road near my home town of Tacoma, Wa. Luckily most manufacturers have made some Milwaukee Road stuff from my time period of the early 70's. The Northeast of the 50's-60's can be easily done with the offerings of all the manufacturers now.
Dream it, and build it!!
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Post by smr on Jan 12, 2017 23:21:57 GMT -5
Hi Alberich, ad 1) I think you can ad 2) Yes and observation car yes, but I don't know if open is correct. ad 3) have a look at page 21 and following. We put together a lot of PRR pictures there: azlforum.com/post/6460/threadBest, Sven
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Post by smr on Jan 12, 2017 23:27:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 0:18:37 GMT -5
Wow ! Thank You very much, that is exactly what I was looking for ! I think the vintage railways have a much better "look" than the present "standardized" ones : every company had her own color scheme, now this remains only true for freight, Amtrak has everywhere almost the same colors . Only some questions more : 1) smr posted a wonderful picture of a closed observation car, but I don't find it anywhere to buy ... And building one from scratch in z seems to be a little bit "risky". 2) My first preference was a Santa-Fe layout, with wonderful red warbonnet E8-locomotives (that was for me THE image I had from US railroads in my youth), but unfortunately the Budd's seem to be no longer available in ATSF version ... And I think the ATSF is too far from the NH ? 3) About signals ... I saw this article on the net : www.railroadsignals.us/signals/pl/pl.htmSo I think that these signals : www.shapeways.com/product/J2WYJA3T4/20-double-signal-lights-z?optionId=41745447are absolutely unsuitable for a PRR layout in the 60's ? Probably I will build the signals from scratch (perhaps using 3D-print) ; they will be dummy, I never really wanted working signals, for such a small scale. Thanks for any answers.
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Post by markm on Jan 13, 2017 14:39:29 GMT -5
Alberich, Welcome to the forum and welcome to Z. I'm afraid Wikipedia isn't the best source for railroading details. For the PRR I'd suggest starting with the railroad's historical society: www.prrths.com/. For images try: www.rrpicturearchives.net or the Railimages section of www.trainboard.com . There are a couple of very knowledgeable French modelers of North American railroads that put in an appearance here. On to the questions... I haven't installed a plow on the E8, but in my opinion the body mounted coupler is more decorative than functional. I find the same is true of the RDCs. I find it interesting to see the 50's and 60's called vintage...I remember it well. In general the heavyweight cars were retired in that time frame on major roads such as the PRR, particularly in the major routes. However some heavyweight cars such as baggage and food service cars persisted all the way to Amtrak. I personally model a 1961 version of the City of San Francisco trains (an SP-UP-C&NW joint train) using the UP HW baggage and diner, LW coaches and sleepers from SP and UP and UP LW dome cars. The HW observation car were commonly converted to business cars and could be seen on almost any passenger train. From time-to-time even today privately owned HW cars can be seen at the end of an Amtrak train. As for freight, I'd suggest looking into 40' and 50' box cars, in your vintage era they were common and still colorful. For you modern Rockies, the majority of freight is container well cars, tank cars and hoppers. UP seems to be running only the SD70s on their major routes and I do see GP38-2s and earlier GPs on the local lines. For the Santa Fe the only Budd cars I'm aware of are the Marklin set. MTL produced some smooth-sided cars that may still be available at a dealer. For signal, I think the PRR you reference is correct. Western roads generally used a target signal. These and their 21st century replacement are available in brass and can be made operational. Hopes this helps, Mark
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Post by Rob Albritton on Jan 13, 2017 15:05:05 GMT -5
smr posted a wonderful picture of a closed observation car, but I don't find it anywhere to buy ... And building one from scratch in z seems to be a little bit "risky". We (AZL) made a very nice PRR smooth side brass passenger set of the Broadway Limited a few years ago. I believe the photographed car may be from that set. The set is still available, but in very limited supply: www.azldirect.com/passenger/heavyweights/2602-1?sort=p.price&order=DESC2) My first preference was a Santa-Fe layout, with wonderful red warbonnet E8-locomotives (that was for me THE image I had from US railroads in my youth), but unfortunately the Budd's seem to be no longer available in ATSF version ... And I think the ATSF is too far from the NH ? Well, the PRR did carry ATSF sleeping cars from the Chief (Pine series IIRC) on the Broadway Limited to enable coast to coast LA-NYC service. So they are not entirely incompatible. But the fun of your railroad is you can run it anyway you please! So mix the NH with the Santa Fe - why not?
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Post by BAZman on Jan 13, 2017 17:05:12 GMT -5
The front coupler is not moveable on the E8's. The freight plow had one that pressed in, which works well on larger radii, like our modules uses. You can also trim the back end an AZL or MTL coupler box, then cut an opening on the plow to put it in. The truck will clear it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 17:53:57 GMT -5
Thanks to smr for the pictures, but there is a little problem ; on the picture with the passenger train, the shape of the roof is not the same as on the azl models : the roofs on the picture have a constant profile, while the cars by AZL are rounded at the ends. Same generation, or not ? Thank You markm, too. As far as I can understand, You suggest me that I should not run the RDC's as multiple units : I don't neither want the front car to uncouple from the second one if the motor is running slightly faster, nor to use a RDC "solo" (despite I saw such a car on several photos, but 2 coupled together on another ; thanks, these sites are a real gold mine) ; is there a reliable solution to fix two cars together ? The couplers seem to be mounted on the chassis and not on the trucks, so I don't know if it is possible to fix them (how ? Not by glueing ! A specially made bar, but I would have to unmount the couplers if possible, see my answer to BAZman). Concerning the E8, I saw that the part around the front coupler is called the plow. So do You run Your E8 with the truck-mounted coupler in front ? Yes, I know, the Rio Grande triple-unit by Märklin has no plows, too. And for "Box cars" which could be used in a PRR train in the 50's or 60's, I found THIS picture in the "gold mine" : www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1813807 ; the picture is from 1980 but if I see the paint and the rust, the car is AT LEAST from the 50's ! And ... it is manufactured by MTL ! 4 such cars (or 2 with 2 brown versions series 3200 from C&O by MTL too, I think that is geographically possible) behind a GP7 with the red-yellow caboose (by MTL ... ), mmmhhh, wonderful ! Thanks to Mr. Rob Albritton : The idea is good, Your cars are beautiful, but ... expensive ! The magic word is here (photoetched ? ) "Brass". These models are very interesting for collectors, perhaps less to use them on a layout. Thanks to BAZman, but I don't wanna make any "surgery" on a new model. The alternative solution, avoiding too many problems, would be to forget the 60's and switch to modern era, Amtrak and UP, my second choice ? And run the "Circus train" with a SD70 instead of the two GP38-2's ? But I think that two GP38-2's could be used for short freight trains, one with 4 beer-reefers, and the other with 4 UP-Coil cars (why not ? But I don't know if they are still in use ; I didn't find THESE types on the photos of real cars in the present) ; Kibri makes a nice old factory (a touch of "vintage" ) where the coil-cars could get "unloaded" . That would not "forbid" that freight trains could run on the track into the "mountains" , it would be "less false" than the mix of NH and ATSF, all the way ! And what do You think about the signals by Shapeways for a modern layout ? They were created by a modeller, so ... where are they in use ? Are they the so-called "target" signals ? They have 2 lights, and I saw a model (operational) made in HO and N by Bachmann, on YouTube. Such a signal can be seen here, too : www.customsignalsystems.com/. The locomotive seems to be a UP-version. So, could I use the "two-lights" signals as a deco on a "modern" layout, or am I completely wrong ? For "vintage" PRR, I could design some signals myself, dummy ones, and let Shapeways print them ; the layer thickness is about 1/60mm. Concerning the operational signals instead of dummies, I built a "German" N-gauge railway in the past (80's), with ALL the signals (about 50) fully operational and 16 block sections, double track on the whole layout, over 15 trains operated automatically via a program on the good old Commodore-64 ; the end effect was that I had created a "gaseous plant" (I built the electronic controls myself) : Over 50 transistors, more than 30 relays and 120 IC's, 12 I/O ports 8 bit wide and over 350m of wiring ! And I was the only guy to know how the system worked, and who could make some repairs in case of problems. So I decided that my next layout would be with single track configuration, I saw that many main lines in USA are built so (even the Coaster runs on a single track on a picture that I saw), and following the "KISS" principle : Keep It Simple and Stupid ! Repairs are less frequent on such a layout ...
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Post by markm on Jan 15, 2017 11:22:14 GMT -5
Alberich, My comment about the RDCs was mostly a heads-up. The range of motion for it's couplers is somewhat limited may not work on all layouts without some surgery. I checked the big book of RDCs and it looks like NH used mostly multiple unit trains with specific cars assigned to a route. You could try a drawbar. I'm playing with an RDC so it will pull a mail storage car using MTL couplers. AZL announced a new run of RDC-1 has been produced. Maybe there is an enhancement that make this discussion irrelevant. I'm afraid I need to report that it was announced yesterday the Ringling circus will be closing in May. So very soon, the circus train will become "vintage." Regarding the E8/9s, I model the WP,SP and UP, all these roads preferred running A-B-B sets so truck replacement isn't a high priority for me. On my UP I'm running the A unit with no front coupler at all. The E8A units came with a retractable coupler and the road preferred to run passenger units with the coupler retracted and the clam shell doors closed. If you haven't seen it yet here the truck replacement details: www.americanzline.com/pdf/AZL%20Truck%20Installation%20E8%20E9.pdfJust to make sure we don't lose anything in translation, the plow is an accessory add-on to the AZL locos replacing pilot. Here's the details for the SD70s: www.zscalemonster.com/azl/61000/sd70-plows.htmThe locos at the top of the page do not have plows. Regarding rolling stock you can really be flexible. In the 1950-60s box cars were all over the country, regardless of road. It wasn't unusual to see a "State of Maine" car in San Francisco or "Santa Fe...all the way" in NH. I've seen the beer-reefers and coil cars (long with a 40' C&NW box car) on trains here in California in just the last 6 months. The signals that were used in the Rockies westward were generally target and are available in brass: www.micronart.com/1022_double_searchlight.html In the past decade UP has upgraded to a new signal head, which may be the same as the shapeways example, but the image isn't clear enough to be certain. Hope this helps, Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 12:07:18 GMT -5
To Mark : I found the "Shapeways-like" signals HERE : www.billburmaster.com/lfta01/up_signal.html ; I think they would fit with a "modern" UP layout ... I still not decided if I will make a "modern" or a "vintage" layout ; my last problem is not directly railway-related : I think it's perhaps more easy (and less expensive too) to find automobiles and truck models from the present era (even if there were made in PRC and one third is unuseable) on eBay or Aliexpress. Scale seems to be rather 1/200 than 1/220, but I saw them together with Märklin models, the Monospace is REALLY too high, but the others could be used ... I know that in USA the cars are a little "bigger" than in Europe (For example, the Pontiac Monospace of the 90's or the present Tesla ... or the Humvee, side by side with a Smart ! ) Thanks again, Your answers were VERY instructive, and if AZL is making a new version of the RDC, this could decide me for a "vintage" version, especially if there is an ... ATSF-version again ! The signals of ATSF-railway are of the searchlight type and VERY EASY to design and, as I wrote, I LOVED the red-warbonnet locomotives (and so was the RDC) ... PS : where did You hear from new RDC's ? The only "new RDC's" I found on the net were from 2011. Perhaps they come at the Toy Fair in Nuremberg ?
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Post by markm on Jan 15, 2017 13:49:42 GMT -5
Alberich, Always glad to help. AZL normally announces new products at the National Train Show (NTS) which this year will be the end of July in Orlando, although frequently they let things slip in this forum. New production runs are generally mentioned here first. Check for posts by Hans or Rob(A). New release information is also posted here twice a month (Rob(K) it's the 15th) The last RDC-1 status I read was that the units were waiting for trucks. I suggested to AZL at NTS Portland in 2015 that they should re-release some roads in their original 1950s paint. So if they release ATSF again, it may be in the pre-Warbonnet scheme: abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?january13/01-08-13/AT_SF-DC192at4StSantaAnaCA7-3-52TomGildersleeveScanColl.jpgAs for vehicles there really is quite a selection of vintage and new, it's a matter that most are produced by individuals with small production run and who really aren't on on-line. Browse www.zscalemonster.com/z.htm to see some of what's available. Also check out the various Ztrack sites. There should also be a number of Z scale vehicles on Shapeways. Two makers that come to mind there are Stony Smith and Walt (southernscale) There is also a Portuguese producer name Alvaro who makes both vintage and modern vehicles. Have you decided whether you'll run DC or DCC? Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 14:13:06 GMT -5
I think I will use "simple" DC again (with PWM), with a maximum of only one train running at a time (from a total amount of only 3 or 4 trains), the layout will be "supervised" by an Atmel microcontroller with speed control and electronic locomotive detection, manual or automatic activation for the different trains via a random number generator . My former layout was much more sophisticated, the electronics worked fine but most of the problems were caused by the unreliable turnouts (made by Arnold, if You can understand ... ). And because 17 trains were in use, the layout seemed to be "overloaded". It looked rather like a demonstration layout in a shop before Christmas ... but this was the usage in the early 80's. I've seen many creations by Walt and Stonysmith on Shapeways (the signals were designed by Walt), but I am rather interested in accessories and buildings than rolling stock. I found on the net a provider of buildings made of printed cardboard (downloadable in PDF), I downloaded the test building but I saw that the color of my laser printer "broke" away on the edges, so I will switch to another more "conventional" method (wood or plastic), or to 3D-printing. About the "vintage" vehicles : did You look at the price ? The cheapest are made in only one color (including glass parts, ugly ! ) for about 5€ in the Netherlands, the other ones are about 15€ ... each, including those sold by Shapeways and not already painted ! The final idea : I saw that BNSF has trackage rights on some UP routes (especially that crossing the Rockies), so in case of a "modern" ( = 2016) layout I think I can mix UP and BNSF rolling stock with Amtrak P42 and superliners ... BNSF painting scheme is not so "beautiful" as red warbonnet, but very interesting too (GP30 and SD75 are available in BNSF and in UP livery, the GP38-2 only as UP). I could not find any picture of a GP30 in "heritage" painting from 2016 ... only here, in december 2015 : www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4383883So, 2015 or 2016 ... The exact year will not be visible on my layout ! I think it is easier to build a "modern" layout, the problem is not only caused by the trains themselves, but by the whole deco, too ; thanks for Your help again !
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Post by markm on Jan 21, 2017 8:43:27 GMT -5
Alerich, You asked earlier how one gets details about AZL releases. Usually it's by way of something like this: www.azlforum.com/post/8427/threadThis certainly suggests that my earlier heads up on running multiple RDCs is obsolete...provided of course the next run has NH. Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 12:59:44 GMT -5
Thank You Mark, but : 1) I had already read this thread. 2) With a probability of 90%, I will choose a "modern" layout, as I wrote the problem is to make a correct deco from the 60's (road vehicles ... ), there is only one provider that I found for such automobiles with an affordable price : www.a2models.nl/webshop/index.php?item=1_220---z-models&action=page&group_id=31&lang=NLand the glass parts have the same color as the body, like Märklin models in the early 70's. And about 5€ each ... So, as I wrote a few days ago, I think I will look to "modern cars" made in China (!) via eBay, glass is transparent, 13€ for 50 items, even if the scale is more about 1/200 than 1/220 : I think it will not be TOO visible ... Nobody will put a Fresnel magnifying glass of 2,5m diameter over his layout !
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