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Post by boxcarwilly on Jun 29, 2014 9:36:02 GMT -5
Yesterday I went to a railroad museum on a bus tour with other model railroaders, their supporters and families. While on the bus I overheard a very interesting conversation between four model railroaders about how DCC control has destroyed the hobby of model railroading. While I did not catch all of their conversation which lasted for almost the entire trip, I was able to gather that the technology behind DCC was flawed and took away the minute by minute control of trains from the operator. This I've known since I've been in the hobby which is why I don't have it. But the other things they mentioned as being detrimental to the hobby were the constant programing and re-programing, the inherent problems with wiring, setup and breakdowns of the technology, and of course the expense of the system. While I did not contribute to the conversation, I found it most enlightening. The one fellow, who apparently has been modelling HO since it first came to this continent was thoroughly disgusted with it, saying when it first came out, he installed it on his layout and quickly became dissatisfied with it. Another said that for him, it was the expense of purchasing the components, the time required to install, program and test, and overall performance. Still a third gentleman said he would never recommend DCC to anyone for all the same reasons. All agreed that DCC has made a joke out of model railroading in any scale. I have to assume from their conversation that all have tried DCC and subsequently removed it from their layouts and reverted back to DC. Now to be clear, I have never worked with DCC, and I don't have it on my layout and I have heard bits and pieces of this same conversation by other railroaders at the local train show held here in this city in April so I can't form an opinion on most of the comments raised by these gentlemen. But two points I will agree with; 1. DCC is an unnecessary expense especially if one wants to retrofit their layout, and 2. It is a tool for the lazy railroader in that total control of the engines/trains is robbed by this system. When I started into this hobby many years ago, I never considered DCC because of the expense involved, but after listening to these gentlemen, if I were new to this hobby, and thinking about making my layout DCC controllable, I would give serious thought to abandoning the idea. In retrospect, I'm glad I chose not to go with DCC in the beginning. I like things just fine with DC.
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Post by markm on Jun 29, 2014 13:43:11 GMT -5
Willy, If you are happy with DC operation, I see no reason to upgrade to DCC. But let me give you my perspective.
I've been doing model railroading (toy trains) since 1957. Back then, the locomotive weighted 20lbs. if power to the engine was interrupted by dirt on the track, it would trigger the direction relay in the tender and throw the engine into reverse. The chugging sound was a bellows attached to the drive wheels. If you wanted a train whistle, it was a real whistle housed in a box on the corner of the layout with a fan that would wake the entire house on Christmas morning. In order to run more than one train at a time, you needed to wire up the track in blocks, with multiple transformers and a collection of relays and switches to route the power. Crossing signal were operated by switches on the track and the flashing rate was controlled by the speed the train speed as it crossed over them. The operator was in total control of the motion of the locomotive. In the prototype world, trains stopped at semaphores and waited for train orders before they moved on to the next semaphore.
Since then, I've moved on to DC power, HO, N and finally Z scale. At the same time there were major advances in electronics and I've gotten quite good at wiring first relays and diodes, then transistors and integrated circuits for layout operation. The prototypes advanced to centralized traffic control, bar-coded rolling stock, automated hump yards and touch panel controlled locomotives.
I consider DCC to mirror the technology advances in the prototype world. And just as not all prototype roads don't need all that technology to run their operations, the same holds true for modelers. I know I can design wire circuitry to equal or surpass anything in DCC, but I don't see much difference in time between designing a circuit, ordering parts and building the circuit, than the time it takes to program DCC. And since the Radio Shack down the hill has closed, the DCC hardware is cheaper than the hand-built circuit.
As for actual locomotive operation, DCC can be run in the same manner as DC with momentum turned off, no speed profiles, etc. with the operator controlling motion. But with DCC the operator can control details like lighting, that isn't available in the DC world. Also DCC allows the modeler to easily build matched speed consists. With DC the modeler would need to characterize their locos to match them up.
Now getting to your specific comments. Is DCC an unnecessary expense? It depends on how prototypically correct you want your modeling to be. I consider hand-laid track to be an unnecessary expense of time and money. Sure it looks fantastic but IMO flex track and even sectional track looks good enough. If your layout isn't big and complex and you don't want to run multiple trains on the same route and you have a good hand on the throttle, DCC is unnecessary. As far as the cost, my Dad spent $100 for my starter set in 1957, about $1200 in today's dollars. I can build a DCC starter set for less than half that.
As for it being a tool for the lazy railroader, I STRONGLY disagree. It's no different than the "lazy" railroader who doesn't scratch-build their locomotives and all their rolling stock. DCC doesn't take "total control", it's just a tool and it's matter of how you use it. If we are trying to attract new railroaders from the "there's an app for that" generation I think DCC would be a great way to start.
All this said, I have to admit that I'm a relative newcomer to DCC and haven't learned everything yet. I only went over to the dark side after AZL and Digitrax made it easy to put DCC in such a wide variety of locomotives.
But most importantly, it's your railroad and if you are happy with what you have, you shouldn't need to justify your choices to anyone!
Mark
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Carlsbad92009
New Member
Z-Scale Service, Cleaning, DCC, Repair, LED Lighting
Posts: 8
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Post by Carlsbad92009 on Jun 29, 2014 15:28:31 GMT -5
Guy's, the stone age is long behind us. I feel sometimes people can make commentary (reverting to the conversation Willy overheard) on subject matter that they have had nor real in-depth experience with. Or.....they are lazy or just plain challenged with once again, "adapting to new and better technology". I got tired of anything DC until I discovered DCC. It's reasonable in cost especially for Z-Sale to get into it. $160.00 for a NCE Power-Cab, $35.00 for a drop-in decoder. I am a service agent for all things Z-Scale, AZL, MTL, Marklin, Tenshodo, and the full range of DCC products for Z-Scale. If you can't figure it out, I can help you or provide the installation as a service. Everyone that I have come across that I have helped to get started in DCC, loves it. As do I because you can have some many more functions in operation from the full gamut of light through to sound. As well.....control animation and additional layout functions including switches, smoke, lights, signals and so on. I do not want to get onto a long winded pro-DCC novel here. Those folks who are afraid to embrace the greatness of DCC are truly missing the boat, read train has left the station for them. Turn out the lights.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Jun 30, 2014 8:29:36 GMT -5
Before chiming in here, let me make a confession:
I'm the guy who designed the common PCB for all of our AZL locomotives. A.J. Ireland at Digitrax saw the usefulness of the design and, much to my embarrassment and horror, proceeded to run over to the Kato booth at NTS with AZL locomotive in hand and started taunting them in a loud voice: "Why can't YOU do this?!?! You know that a couple of Z scale guys just showed you a better way, right???" OK, it was embarrassing at the moment, but in retrospect, it was pretty damn cool.
I also own a very large DCC / computer controlled layout of the Gotthard in the Swiss Alps.
Now here is the surprise: I like analog DC just as much as I like DCC. Yes, there is something to running a DC power pack with your hands, popping it up and down a little bit for grades, and sliding the train into the station just right that seems more connected with analog than it does with DCC. I don't know why. It just does.
*BUT* when it comes to running multiple trains at the same time, then forget analog DC. Being stuck to hard electrical blocks is not fun. DC "feels" better, but not so great that I have to protect train movements based on where I ran wires. More than a couple of trains? Go DCC.
Now there is one other thing that has not come up yet: you can have the best of both worlds. Just wire in a switch on your track wires and you can "convert" your layout from analog to digital at the flick of a switch. Have a DCC booser on on side of the switch and a power pack on the other. Almost all DCC decoders will run fine under analog DC power - the only difference is that the on-board rectifier is going to kick down the voltage INSIDE the locomotive by about 1 volt, so you need to run your DC power pack 1 volt higher than you normally would at all speeds to compensate. No big deal.
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Post by boxcarwilly on Jun 30, 2014 10:25:10 GMT -5
Since I have never experienced the, shall we say, "thrill" of DCC, I cannot directly comment on whether or not it's a good thing or bad thing. From what I heard from those gentlemen on the bus, they all felt is was a bad thing for many reasons. One thing to mention, those railroaders were all in their late 60's and 70's so if they are stuck in the past, back when dinosaurs pulled cave men across the countryside in hand made cart trains, then I guess that's their bag. I have to assume by their conversations that they have used DCC on their own layouts, or perhaps belonged to clubs that do. I don't know and I didn't get involved in their discussion. But I have seen DCC in operation for myself and I can't see any advantage to having it. Oh I suppose it's impressive to have a train sitting in the yard or on a siding somewhere with it's engines down but the lights on, but to me it's not a selling point. As for running more then one train on the same track, let me point this out. I can do that now with my layout in DC, it's just a matter of spacing the trains out far enough that they don't run into one another or if going in the same direction, don't overtake one another. I've experimented with this for many years and I think I have it down to a find science now and should the unthinkable happen, then I can simple shut the power off to the block that train is on, and wait till the space opens up, then off we go again. Or I can simply pull one train off onto a separately power passing track and let the other train go through. Like the real thing. This I find impresses a lot of people who have viewed my layout in operation. Now you mention about the cost of decoders and such, well what Carlsbad 92009 quotes may be true in the US but up here in Canuckastan as we have been referred to, all these components are much more expensive, and when you have a fleet of engines numbering over 20 like I do, and over 50 scale miles of track on two main lines, it just isn't cost effective to retrofit just to have one train sit on a siding with a light on. The other drawback to this is the train shops, at least in my city, are woefully under stocked in these components and all the owners refuse to carry sufficient inventory to fill the needs of the many clubs and individuals here and for miles around which is why I buy all my train stuff from dealers in the states except for common things like wire, paint and scenery. Hell, I can't even buy track here, I have to get it from a dealer in the States. Go figure. All in all, I have no doubt that DCC might be the second coming, but to those 4 gentlemen and ultimately to myself, it's pointless. As for destroying the hobby, I have no opinion on that aspect, but I guess it comes down to individual preference and one's own opinion. Finally, I would like to make a comment about scratch building engines and rolling stock. I suffer from Parkinson's Disease and failing eyesight. It is extremely difficult for me to work on my layout, and put trains on the track with shaky hands in poor light let alone try to build something from scratch. True I have attempted to build things from kits, and despite my afflictions, have not done too badly at it, but scratch building is not something that I can physically do. Right now I am attempting to put signals at certain points along my one main line but to do that I have to solder resistors to signal wires and then additional lengths of wire to the resistors and holding a soldering iron in one hand and solder in the other and getting the two to work is nothing short of a miracle for me. But I have to do it if I want a certain degree of realism on my layout and sadly, I am alone with no help, not even from family so it is a struggle at best. What would take any of you 10 minutes at best to accomplish, takes me almost 30 minutes or longer just for one signal so you can imagine how difficult it would be for me to scratch build anything. It takes extreme concentration just to put a screwdriver on the head of a screw and sometimes I can't do it. Yes there was a time, back when fire had just been invented, that I could do scratch building with no problem at all. I used to do it with model cars, trucks, airplanes and ships. But today, YA RIGHT!!!!! Ain't gonna happen Jack. Bottom line, right now, I couldn't scratch build a 24" thunder pot let alone an engine or boxcar. FYI.
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Post by modelwarships on Jul 2, 2014 20:19:06 GMT -5
You know it's more than just having all your engines sitting on the track with their lights on. It's about being able to make up a consist in the same block, adding helpers, and being able to move many different trains without a maze of wiring and switches. Once you add that freedom to your layout, it's hard to go back. I have 50+ HO engines with only a dozen DCC'd, and a layout that can switch from DCC to DC. It's a lot of money to do it, but to me it's worth it. In Z I have been converting all my engines to DCC. I will retain the ability to go DC, but probably will never use it again. But to each their own, this is a hobby and we should all enjoy it how we see fit.
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Post by webskipper on Feb 9, 2016 15:06:39 GMT -5
I understand your frustration with the new technology. However,
DCC opens a whole new experience to the hobby.
The train hobby is primarily retirees. I'm 48 and the youngest of my N&Z Club.
The only way it will survive is by bringing in young blood.
The kids are born surrounded with electronic technology, and operating a DCC train with their iPod or iPhone is natural.
Above the cool things you can do with digital signals, DCC saves my trains from melting on poorly built layouts.
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Post by dazed on Feb 9, 2016 17:20:49 GMT -5
Oye, I thought these discussions had been put to rest years ago.
Really, that's a LOT of assumptions and conjecture based on a discussion on a bus and your self-professed lack of DCC knowledge and experience.
And how exactly have you "known" this? I can't even start to address how incorrect the statement "took away the minute by minute control of trains from the operator" is.
You can assume that, but I have serious doubts that they've even tried it. This is the same type of forum discussion that occurred 15 years ago on many of the forums, and then you find out "well I've never really tried DCC" and "oh by the way I don't even really have a layout".
Wow, it's hard to even respond to this part. I will say I recommend you get your facts straight before you start accusing people of being lazy. Not even going to broach your obvious lack of understanding of true operations and independent train control....running trains in a circle and keeping them spaced apart ISN'T what DCC is for.
Yet, you absolutely are.
If you are trying to get some type of "reinforcement" that your DC system is OK, there's no need! Nobody is forcing DCC on you, and it surely does what you need it to do. But to throw out this bunch of baloney is just unnecessary, and quite frankly its a 15 year old strawman argument that has been debunked over and over.
I do wish you better health, and have fun model railroading, but your editorials need work...just might not be your cup of tea.
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Post by smr on Feb 10, 2016 3:50:20 GMT -5
Now there is one other thing that has not come up yet: you can have the best of both worlds. Just wire in a switch on your track wires and you can "convert" your layout from analog to digital at the flick of a switch. Have a DCC booser on on side of the switch and a power pack on the other. Almost all DCC decoders will run fine under analog DC power - the only difference is that the on-board rectifier is going to kick down the voltage INSIDE the locomotive by about 1 volt, so you need to run your DC power pack 1 volt higher than you normally would at all speeds to compensate. No big deal. This is exactly what I am doing with all my layouts. You can easily decide by one switch how to run. At a convention DCC makes your life so much easier, you have rare special loco you would like to present - switch back to DC. Want to run a A-B-A unit? - better switch back to DCC.......... Just grab the best of both worlds! Enjoy! Best, Sven
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Post by atw on Feb 10, 2016 13:36:55 GMT -5
okay, I can offer up a new angle on this discussion - I actually *want* to move to DCC but I keep pushing it back because I'm simply too *lazy*. Guess that makes me a lazy *DC railroader* ...
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Post by dawdawes on Feb 11, 2016 8:43:46 GMT -5
Back in 2003 I ran an N scale exhibition railway based on Chester Vermont. it was single line and all wired for cab control dc. At the time a new company nr Oxford was selling Digitrax . Now remember in 2003 dcc was newish in the US let alone the UK, the Brits didn't really get it untill at least 2007, sorry I digress . I purchased a Digitrax unit and an extra hand held and never looked back. it suited me for my n scale layouts at the time. 3 things to remember, always use lots of drop wires ,and i fully isolate my points (switches) at the heal end on all tracks and feed at the toe end. Also keep track clean using a fluid cleaner not a rubber as it scratches the track. I have had one or 2 hiccups over the years but considering I do probably 25 shows a year I think DCC is FAB. Now come up to 2016 and a new Z and a new N layout and what am I using? yup you guessed it DC, why ,I'm only running 1 train at a time, simples Now while I am here, I am building a new Z layout for a friend and he want to go DCC, do you need to reduce the power output. cheers Dave D UK
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Post by burlingtonroute on Feb 14, 2016 5:32:46 GMT -5
"If you wanted a train whistle, it was a real whistle housed in a box on the corner of the layout with a fan that would wake the entire house on Christmas morning"
I would pay cash money right now to have a rig like that! Someone should make a gizmo like that again!
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Post by catt on Feb 14, 2016 10:16:30 GMT -5
I hear people talking all the time about how difficult it is to install DCC on your layout.This does not make sense to me as both systems require the same thing.Two wires,one to one rail and the other to the other rail.My Home N and HO layouts are both DC and DCC thanks to a quality double pole double throw center off toggle switch.
The home Z layout will be the same set up.The layout I take to shows will remain DC because it is a one train layout.To me the important part is to have plenty of electrical feeds going to bus wires which in turn are connected to the power source(s)
One big plus with a dual powered layout is you can test your DC locos to see if they run good enough to convert from DC to DCC.No decoder in the world will make a crappy running DC locomotive run better than a crappy DC locomotive.
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Post by Rob Albritton on Feb 14, 2016 12:37:32 GMT -5
I hear people talking all the time about how difficult it is to install DCC on your layout.This does not make sense to me as both systems require the same thing.Two wires,one to one rail and the other to the other rail.My Home N and HO layouts are both DC and DCC thanks to a quality double pole double throw center off toggle switch. The home Z layout will be the same set up.The layout I take to shows will remain DC because it is a one train layout.To me the important part is to have plenty of electrical feeds going to bus wires which in turn are connected to the power source(s) One big plus with a dual powered layout is you can test your DC locos to see if they run good enough to convert from DC to DCC.No decoder in the world will make a crappy running DC locomotive run better than a crappy DC locomotive. Great post - all true and well said. I still get a chuckle out of the title of this thread "DCC Destroying Hobby." For some reason I imagine a 1:220 scale Godzilla with a "DCC" tattoo stomping through a perfect Japanese Z scale layout.
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Post by atw on Feb 14, 2016 13:52:34 GMT -5
For some reason I imagine a 1:220 scale Godzilla with a "DCC" tattoo stomping through a perfect Japanese Z scale layout. Rob... it's happening !! I can't be sure about the tattoo though, I just took this snapshot and made a dash for it... cheerZ Adrian
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