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Post by Joe Massung on Apr 28, 2018 20:29:22 GMT -5
I just started Z scale March 1st. I have been an N scale modeler for 50 years. My question is why don't any manufacturers produce any GE, Alcos or even GP-40s in this scale? I seems their are large gaps in equipment, and I would love to see it grow. If you make it, we will come.
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Post by cwrr on Apr 28, 2018 22:23:37 GMT -5
There's ALOT of us asking the same question......
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Post by dazed on Apr 29, 2018 0:45:19 GMT -5
Here's my take...
1. You have the GP38-2, which is old tooling that has bumped along through the years and really allowed z-scale to develop by offering an entry-level style price point for a locomotive that runs well. (whether that is true historically I'm not sure but--crumbling issues aside--it is a nice running locomotive today.)
2. However, the GP38-2 is an anomaly of sorts due to a variety of reasons...how long it has been around, a nice healthy/lengthy amortizing history, popularity, massive amount of schemes available to apply to it, et al. So the reality is that "typical" locomotives in Z cost somewhere in the $160-200 price range, street prices. Seems people don't want to hear that, and that probably stifles the chances of us seeing the GP40, Alco RS-3, GE B23-7, etc.
3. While, for example, the GP40 could use the same mech as the GP38-2, the cost of producing the new shell is significant when considering the size of the market, the demand, and the price the market will bear. In other words, the GP40 WON'T be $90, and everyone will cry foul and want to try and compare the number with the market for N or HO and it just isn't even close.
4. The risk proposition of the GP40 versus the nice big modern 6-axle modern "stump puller" diesels is much higher, and those resources will likely continue to be funneled that direction. Same is true for the GE's and Alco's they are at a disadvantage either by virtue of size, roadnames available, tooling costs, and pulling power.
5. Your question references "manufacturerS"...in reality you are talking about 2, tops: AZL and MTL. MTL seems to be committing "minimal" resources to developing product in Z at the moment so really you're talking about ONE manufacturer for North American proto locomotives. Then, once again, it just becomes a matter of resources thrown at projects. AZL seems to have much different goals/motivation than say an Atlas that truly develops their market(s) well. And again, that's not quite a fair statement to make given the disparity in markets. But it is the reality. Bottom line...AZL can not shoulder ALL the burden of product development in Z-scale and be effective long-term at delivering the variety of locomotives we want in a reasonable time frame.
6. So that segues into...."help us Atlas, you're our only hope..." Atlas jumping into the z-scale game with their track line is significant, and one can only hope that they take further chances on the progression of Z-scale. It doesn't *have* to be Atlas, but that would be the best outcome short of possibly Kato, or remotely Intermountain who really seemed content with drop-kicking z-scale out the door a few years ago. Would Full Throttle or Rokuhan jump in? Who knows.
7. While I still contend that comparing AZL to Atlas is unfair, it IS an interesting study to see how Atlas progressed over the past 30 years or so with their n-scale line. If it COULD be applied to the Z market, you can see that the locos mentioned would be not far away on the timeline.
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Post by texrail on Apr 29, 2018 4:27:54 GMT -5
Doug,
that´s a good analysis. You are probaly right. But I think there is still huge interest, at least, in ALCO PAs and PBs. So, hope dies last...
Regards, Ingo
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Post by neverland on May 19, 2018 7:06:19 GMT -5
I dropped Rapido a line a few months ago asking them if they had any plans to enter the Z market now that they've opened a manufacturing facility in China. Despite their business model of small production runs, the answer was a polite NO. They just don't see the Z market, at least in North America, growing enough to justify the tooling costs.
I have a single Rapido FL9 in HO that is a sweet running loco.
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Post by BAZman on May 20, 2018 23:15:55 GMT -5
Rob Allbritton (Joe: AZL Co-owner) posted some time back (search key words related to GE U's). There were so few railroads and tooling completely different from current results is impossible payback for the Z scale market. Seriously, for the Z scale market, they would sell 20, maybe 50 units (AZL has a huge database now on what sells and what doesn't). Even 100 units will *not* even come close to tooling. For any supplier.
But, we appreciate you joining us daring Z scalers.
Regards,
since 1977
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Post by thad tabor on May 21, 2018 17:10:45 GMT -5
While GP 40 might or might not hit thee minimum production numbers. GP 60M a and b units would. Just look at fox valley. Two or three runs now. Three or four paint schemes.
Just saying
TT
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Post by thad tabor on May 22, 2018 0:13:00 GMT -5
It seems that 1st and 2nd generation GE locomotives never seem to sell very well. Just look to nscale for their results...I and or friends would buy one or two maybe...
TT
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Post by cwrr on May 22, 2018 9:31:45 GMT -5
I'd buy a GP40 over a GE U25B, even thought the GE would be cool, but I think we all need a good running switcher like and SW1200, or SW1500 first. That seems to be what most people are always asking about. Just about every North American railroad had them.
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Post by dazed on May 22, 2018 14:55:15 GMT -5
While GP 40 might or might not hit thee minimum production numbers. GP 60M a and b units would. Just look at fox valley. Two or three runs now. Three or four paint schemes. Just saying TT Actually, the GP40 would be a much bigger seller, and it wouldn't be close. The dealers I talk to say the n-scale GP60M and GP60B were not stellar from the sales perspective. They weren't terrible, but certainly nothing compared to what a GP40 would garner, with probably 20 or 30 times the number of legitimate roadnames from which to draw sales. While a little bit of an unfair comparison considering how long the GP40 has been on the market compared to the FVM 60's, the Atlas geep has easily outsold the FVM, likely by a factor of 100x or more. The GP60M/B's suffer from the limited pool of roadnames to apply. Any roadname you want as long as it's (BN)SF.  Don't get me wrong, as a BNSF modeler I would personally much prefer to have GP60M's and GP60B's. But the GP40 would be the more commercially viable of the two. |
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Post by domi on May 23, 2018 6:34:29 GMT -5
Rob Allbritton (Joe: AZL Co-owner) posted some time back (search key words related to GE U's). There were so few railroads and tooling completely different from current results is impossible payback for the Z scale market. Seriously, for the Z scale market, they would sell 20, maybe 50 units (AZL has a huge database now on what sells and what doesn't). Even 100 units will *not* even come close to tooling. For any supplier. But, we appreciate you joining us daring Z scalers. Regards, since 1977 Not the best news for me, but however will manage with that... Dom |
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Post by gerd on May 23, 2018 17:36:54 GMT -5
Alco and GE diesel are available, but only from custom builders like me ;-)
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Post by gerd on May 23, 2018 17:41:38 GMT -5
Forgot about those:
And even a Fairbanks-Morse: |
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Post by QcKraag on May 23, 2018 23:41:24 GMT -5
Yeah, even a gmd-1 haha like my profile pic  |
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Post by PrimaryJosh on Jul 3, 2018 10:35:07 GMT -5
Hey Guys, I just found this form after searching around for info on z-scale models. I'm not trying to plug my company, just looking for advice as we're using new technology that could help bring more models to market, but if this isn't allowed, please delete. My company has the means to make these models economically on our Carbon3D machines with some great detail. We don't require tooling or molds, just 3D files so smaller runs aren't a problem. We're just starting to get into making models and the results have been really good so far. Who would be a good person or company to contact to work with to get these made?
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